Chinese Counterfeiter Producing High Quality Fakes

I see some other problems with it as well that I won't mention. But how often do people post pics that large and clear? Usually they're a quarter of that size, dark, and not very clear. A raw CC in this shape may get a little more scrutiny. I doubt a common Philadelphia example would be pointed out but by a few people. If any. And then most here wouldn't believe them. Assuming the picture was as good and the assumption was that it's real.

It just goes to show how much everybody needs to be paying attention.

 

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I agree, Vess. That is one of the better fakes I've seen. No doubt it would fool many. I just hope collectors will do a little bookwork before buying something like that.

 

Veeery Interesting!!

I was personally appalled in the past when reading of admitted seeming deceit/hypocrisy posted by individuals in this venue, bragging that they had purchased a counterfeit coin, betrayed the seller, received a refund, and retained the coin.

After reading the posts in this thread it appears that some have more knowledge of counterfeit construction/processes than I could ascertain from the quality images that were presented. It appears that in addition to purchasing the coins some are trying to limit general availability of a seemingly espoused legal product.

I personally have thousands of this type coin, and virtually complete sets of these coins. After viewing the critique of the coins and viewing my coins/sets conditions, I couldn't find an exception in the images to my possessed authentic coins. When viewing the images I couldn't detect the conditions which I would expect if the construction was as hypothesized.

I now realize that my mores are apparently outdated, and if one is to objectively critique all parameters, they need acquire a sample of all coins being sold, and personally analyze to verify reality.

As a Grand-Father to 2 adopted Chinese Grand-Daughters, who would enjoy gifting a Chinese Morgan replica set to them, I've sent an e-mail to the Chinese seller, requesting the possibility of acquiring all 96 coin replicas.

I could also evaluate and allay subjective reports concerning the reality of these coins relative to authorized coinage.

It should be interesting to see what develops!! :thumb:

 

That'd be great in theory. But I've been hesitant to want to post much about the few errors that are left on these fakes. They're going to read this stuff eventually and perfect them even more. We've openly discussed fakes before but the more we write about them, the more possibility we have of helping them make them more real.

 

"Sorry excuse for a COPY stamp" is right.

This is what a COPY stamp is supposed to look like:

 

Please see post #19 concerning this. They don't use them anyway! Buy one from them and don't say anything. Guarantee they'll send you one with no stamp on it. The pic simply allows them to sell on ebay.

 

Just To Establish "The Truth"

Thank you for your concerns, but we underestimate the disciplines/intelligence of the Chinese. I've dealt with Chinese scientists for more than 2 decades, currently working Pro Bono with scientists on a "green" project (to correct illegal dumping conditions generated by the U.S.) which could only be accomplished in a country where government listens to industry, enjoins in projects for the "common good". They are in process to develop "green" technology for the world, while respecting their greatest enemy, funding efforts to protect themselves from the instability besetting others:
http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/sciencetech/china-secret-fleet-stealth-fighters/18714

I've already ordered/paid for those Morgan Dollar items currently available. The intent was/is as previously stated, namely to ferret fact from fiction in postings which I believe have tripe, seemingly posted to stimulate emotional actions by others. I'm not one to critique the product, but merely challenge conjecture, and present facts.

Thanks for your thoughtful posts. :thumb:

 

I was one of the last people to purchase this coin before the J-man got Naru'ed. After studying the coin for a bit, I have found several major problems. If you have the coin in-hand, you can readily tell it is not the Real McCoy, if you know what to look for. I believe it could fool some dealers, but others would spot it easily. It would never make it past a TPG service. I know some folks have been reluctant to post info, because they feel it could help out the counterfeiters, but I am willing to give my analysis if most feel they would benefit or be interested. So I will leave it up to you. Should I post it or not.

BTW, this was a great exercise for me as I learned a ton.

Mike

 

No, actually you can report the listing. CT members have reported listings before, and they are taken down promptly.

 

My guess is that I have now reported 250,000 listing and had them removed - about 500 today alone. My point was that that specific listing did not violate any regulation I could see.

 

This is truly scary. Hopefully, NGC and PCGS would recognize them as fakes. Then again, there are now fake slabs on the market place.

These counterfeiters could potentially destroy the hobby.

I'm always impressed by those who can be sure a coin really is authentic just by photos.


(Ancient) guy

 

imrich, I am eagerly awaiting the info you find from this.

 

I too am impressed with those are absolutely confident that they can detect fakes -- when the counterfeiters are one step ahead. The following article by Headley is very disturbing:

http://coins.about.com/od/coingrading/ig/Fake-PCGS-Slab-Diagnostics/

 

I'm "Fooled"

I bid on 8 different dates that were offered by the Chinese seller, sending an additional purchase offer through the eBay communication system, stating a willingness to purchase any additional dates available. I was outbid on one of coins, eventually winning 7 different date/condition Morgan dollar coins.

I never received a response to my purchase proposal, but wasn't amazed, as from past experiences with the eBay system, I've found discrepancies in forwarding/content, and have discussed/verified with others the matter of eBay selective transmittal auditing/voiding. EBay may eventually "over-step", and reap the rewards/penalties for their privacy violation actions.

I eventually received the specimens, leaving feedback indicating my appreciation and willingness to acquire additional specimens. The seller acted honorably in accordance with eBay terms of service, and never responded.

I've spent much of my life "reverse engineering" through patent and physical examinations, developing an appreciation for unique creativity. I find the subject of counterfeiting to be somewhat humorous as America is a rather infantile country that has developed a major portion of its' industry by "copying" ( with some often minor modifications) technology developed in other lands, established before our country was established. I believe one would find that our original currency press operation, and even some of the equipment was developed in other lands. There's evidence that the rudimentary original elements of our automobiles, space/rocketry program, industrial equipment, etc. were developed without. Regardless, I've purchased and studied fine copies, whether it be of a Rembrandt or Kalashnikov, to develop an objective appreciation. The Chinese "replicas" (having been labeled by myself as such on Obverse and Reverse) will remain in my possession (along with respective certified "originals") as evidence to refute/debunk some claims I've viewed.

My observations determined the coins to be generally much as previously posted in this thread, without any readily perceivable means for copy identification, non-magnetic, and within mint dimensional/weight tolerances. I compared them to certified specimens graded by the "premier TPG", and could find certified specimens having the "abnormalities" previously posted, which might indicate variation from U.S. mint nominally produced coins. I intermingled the coins with "authentic" comparable coins for viewing by theoretically knowledgeable individuals, and although some seemingly guessed correct on a few, none could guess in the majority, or establish a logical exceptional consistent basis for their claim. Their "discovery" was generally inconsistently intuitive.

In my humble opinion, I wouldn't purchase a rare date Numismatic item today unless it was verifiably encapsulated by a firm with a "reasonable" repurchase policy, as some of these "counterfeit" coins are seemingly undetectable. :thumb:

 

The differences would be clear to anyone willing to inspect them under a microscope. These fakes would not have the minor signs of an old-worked die with its interesting little irregularities and/or tool marks. The surface luster in the pictures seems to have a spackled or grainy look, which would raise suspicion right from the start regardless if it was a rare or common date. This look to the surface is something I always see as synonymous with modern era coins struck with extremely high and even pressure.

Wow, you must not have very much time for anything else LOL

 

You want to put counterfeiters out of business?

Do what I do...
Go to aliexpress.com
Purchase a tidy amount if counterfeit coins from one seller only.
Pay with a credit card
Once item is shipped file a chargeback with your credit card company.
Receive counterfeit coins at no cost, stamp them with copy. Throw away in the trash.
I've done this for 3.5 months and to the tune of $15k.
11k from one seller alone.
Do it enough and those fruit tarts will find another profession.
I do same with counterfeit sellers based in the US.
I do chargebacks after receiving items plus referring them to secret service.
Wait it gets better.
Since most still live at home I send their mommy and daddy a nice letter too. Bahahahahahah

It's fun ruining lives of lowlife scammers

 

Great information , but if a coin is struck out of collar wouldn't it be larger in diameter than a real Morgan , sort of like Bust halves are larger than modern half dollars ?

 

Ha! That is awesome. Cheers! :cheers:

 

Unfortunately, I missed this thread when it began in early September, but there are a couple of points that need to be clarified.


I believe it was in December, 2008 that Coin World, in a two-part series, interviewed "Jinghuashei" at his factory in Shanghai, and this is what they learned.

1) The equipment being used to produce the counterfeits is the very same equipment that the US Mint used to produce these coins in the late 19th century. You see, China decided that they wanted to build their own mint in Shanghai, and the equipment, which had been put in "mothballs" after modernization at the Philadelphia Mint was given to the Chinese by our government. China was so appreciative of the US assistance that the facade of their mint was an exact duplicate of the old Philadelphia Mint.

2) After decades of use, China decided to modernize their facility, and so the old equipment was sold as scrap. This is when men like Jinghuashei bought the equipment at scrap prices, refurbished it and began making their counterfeit coins.

3) By Chinese law, the word "COPY" is not required on any counterfeit coin that is sold in the Asian market, and Jinghuashei used this loophole in the law to his advantage claiming that his business was conducted in the Asian market and he had no operations in any non-Asian countries. That is how he was able to use venues like eBay and eBay Europe to sell the counterfeits.

4) Jinghuashei and others like him have perfected their techniques to include duplication of the dies using laser readers, but before they begin using the dies, they modify any imperfections that may be a giveaway to the coin's authenticity.

5) At first, they were using non-precious metals to produce these coins at a cost of about 50c per coin, but the problems with weight and density and specific gravity were almost sure giveaways. Eventually, they started using 90% silver because they realized that even if the price of silver was, say $40, it was still only costing them about $31 for a coin they could sell for 3x, 4x or more.

6) Naturally, if he produced an 1889-CC or an 1893-S Morgan in a high mint state grade, it would be a red flag in itself to many collectors here. So, he developed a way to "age" the coins showing circulation wear and rub. For example, the 1879-CC that was linked at the beginning of this thread was given sufficient wear, and yes, even slight rounding of the rims as you might expect to see on a circulated coin.

Chris

 

All the more reason to get a good microscope and get familiarized with forensic coin analysis. Under 200x magnification the difference between a laser cut die and one hubbed from a human cut master die are quite clear.