I like to collect Franklins and Roosevelt's . First I started with the dimes and it seems to me there is just more around in NGC so the majority I have are in NGC .I like the new edge view . But for franklin half's NGC is by far the one I want to buy in FBL as there are much fewer around and they are worth more to me. I have got some FBL from PCGS that would not be graded FBL from NGC. And I have some NGC 1/2s that I think might go FBL with PCGS. So PCGS is my secone choice .
I was just comparing the costs associated with submitting several coins in need of variety attribution... PCGS Economy fee: $18 Attribution: $24 Invoice/Handling: $8 S+H to and from: +/- $8 (website says $16, so it depends on number of coins returned) Total: $58 NGC: Economy: $17 Attribution: $10 Scratch resistent holder: $5 S+H both ways: +/- $8 Total: $40 ANACS Standard Fee: $19 ($14 if you submit 5 or more coins) Attribution: $10 ($5 if you already know the variety and want it confirmed) S+H both ways: +/- $8 Total $27 to $37 per coin Depending upon the value of the variety, it could jump a little bit in price with NGC or PCGS. I lean towards PCGS... because 1) I'm looking long term to build a quality PCGS Buffalo variety/circulated registry set. 2) I really, really, really prefer their Slab. 3) I think their stamp is worth a little more in the market thus negating the additional fee, especially when you are talking higher end coins. I have some collectible, yet low end circulated DDR and DDO's of little or no premium. In my experience, on the low end, attribution matters, but choice of TPG doesn't. My OCC nature would prefer attribution for future resale. For those I'm considering ANACS from just the cost savings standpoint. I look for the coin and worry secondly about the slab, but I find NGC slabs are just distracting to me and a PITA to photograph' Edited to add... for the cost conscious, to my knowledge you don't have to fork over a "club" fee to join ANACS... more additional cost per coin if you are only submitting a handful of coins each year. Edited to add: NGC only accepts crossovers from PCGS... another strike against them IMHO.
What I take from your comments is that you know your series and know which TPG is better for your series. I think that really could be the best point of the thread. There are series where one may be far better on. Also when it comes to looks who can beat gold in a PCGS OGH? I think the gold and green look cool together.
Disclaimer: I have many coins from PCGS and NGC. Both are better than any other TPG that comes in a distant 3rd (in my opinion). I have seen egregious errors made by both companies, but for the most part they get it right. ----------------------------------- PCGS has in many ways created their own increased demand and thus higher prices paid. Let me explain: They only allow PCGS coins in their Registry Sets, whereas NGC allows both NGC and PCGS coins. Many people play the registry game, and the whispering on the street has been for many years that PCGS is more strict in their grading. Until there is some subjective study of the same coins being sent to both companies, I don't believe this argument. Can someone point me to a comparison study which has "blinded to NGC and PCGS" submitted the same coins (more than one coin) to PCGS and NGC across many different series and reported back the results of the grading?? Until a proper comparison study across many series and with sufficient sample sizes to draw inferences has been done, then any talk of PCGS being more conservative is just personal opinion of people who, for all I know, have an agenda one way or the other. I can say though, the only grade ranges where PCGS coins demand a much higher price than their NGC equivalents is in the highest grades. If you have an MS66RD Lincoln from the 1940s or 1950s, there is no difference in the price you will pay for PCGS vs. NGC. If you have an MS67RD or MS68RD, they you will pay significantly more for PCGS. Similarly, if you have an MS64 or MS63 Morgan, the prices will be about the same at a true auction. IF they coin is a top population or one notch below then PCGS will demand a premium. BUT, most of this difference in price is likely because the type of people who are bidding on that coin are often if not always someone trying to build a PCGS Registry Set. Again, I repeat, PCGS has created their own demand for their plastic. Whenever I see this PCGS vs. NGC argument surface (which seems to be pretty often) one thing comes to my mind. Back in 2006 PCGS announced that they had graded the first MS70 Lincoln Business Strike Cent. It was a big deal for Lincoln Cent collectors...(See story here: http://www.pcgs.com/Articles/Detail/4779 ). Well, needless to say, they got it wrong. After the coin sold for a Lot of money, PCGS has to eat crow and pay the difference, and they downgraded the coin to MS69. See picture below, and look up the Cert Number on the PCGS website...it's no longer an MS70. As another example, PCGS has graded 2 Kennedy 2011-P Halves as MS69. These are about as rare as hen's teeth, but I also don't believe that if they were cracked out and submitted to NGC (or even resubmitted to PCGS) they would grade MS69. And, I certainly would never pay the $5000 + they are currently asking for an example in this grade. BUT, I'm sure someone will pay that to keep their PCGS registry set at #1.
I own both NGC and PCGS. It doesn't matter to me about the slab because I'm buying the coin, but when it comes to submitting coins, I prefer NGC because their customer service is better in my opinion. I don't care about which slab will generate a greater sale price on the market because I'm not thinking of selling. If others have no plans to sell, then the PCGS resale value is meaningless for them, too. Chris
Also why I love PCGS more is you can stack not only other PCGS coins ontop of them, but you can also stack an NGC coin ontop of them but you cant stack a PCGS coin ontop of a NGC coin
It's great there's a choice for collectors. And there will never be unanimity on topics like this one. I don't know of any "study" and I can't imagine why or how anyone would undertake it. Studying the accuracy of grading opinions? Let's just say that after you have spent many years with a series -- collecting several hundreds of examples of coins graded by both TPGs, and sharing experiences with some of the best dealers and collectors of your series, you will draw conclusions that are probably pretty solid. Yes, PCGS excludes NGC coins in its registry sets. If that were the simple reason why price and demand for PCGS coins is higher then why doesn't NGC do the same? Furthermore, it is my guess that the overwhelming majority of collectors have nothing to do with registries. As for the MS70 business strike cent, the reason PCGS invoked their guarantee had nothing to do with an error in the original grading. A spot later developed -- as sometimes happens with copper, and the coin no longer deserved MS70. I'd say it was pretty cool PCGS stepped up and paid out. I have collected dozens of times from PCGS. NGC has yet to make a single guarantee payment. Lastly, it is not solely at the highest grade levels where there is a disjoint, although I agree it can be pretty extreme up there. It can be seen with numerous series at much lower levels. I see it all the time for CBH's in AU, one of the series I collect. Lance.
A study would be very simple to undertake. But, it would be costly. Choose 4 coins from 20 different series, so 80 coins total. Of the 4 coins in each series, choose 2 that are roughly graded XF-AU and 2 that are roughly MS63 to MS66 (depending on the series, MS66 could be hard to find). Send one of the XF and one of the MS coins to PCGS first, and send the other two (one XF and one MS) to NGC first. When you receive the coins back from PCGS and NGC respectively, photograph and document their grades assigned. Crack out the 4 coins and send them to the other grader (NGC to PCGS, and PCGS to NGC). Again, at this state, document with photos the coins pre-submission to verify that no damage was incurred during crack-out. When the coins are returned in their holders, you record, photograph, and document the assigned grades the 2nd time. In total you will have submitted 80 coins to NGC and the same 80 coins to PCGS. You will have submitted them in random order so you can test whether the 2nd submission in general (regardless of grader) was lower graded (because of likely crack out handling, etc). If the grades assigned to the PCGS coins was consistently lower across all series or for certain series you would have a sample size of 4 in each series to determine this. This is about the minimum required to summarize the differences statistically. Total cost: 2 submissions of 40 coins each to both PCGS and NGC (160 grading fees). -------------------------------- To reply to Lance: You mentioned the AU grade CBHs. Those, in my opinion, fall under relative high grade for the series. There are a few MS graded, but for the number of people who collect these coins AU is quite high. While I agree with your comment that the majority of collectors do not play the registry game, the prices of almost all high grade examples of a coin are set by Registry Set owners. You can't tell me the 1976 Clad Eisenhower dollar that sold in July Heritage auction for $25,000+ graded PR70DCAM wasn't purchased by a Registry Set player? C'mon. I stand by my opinion that PCGS (even if in part) creates their own demand for their coins. I can also attest that the price guide prices set by PCGS are usually laughable. They are not based on any reality and are sometimes multiples of what coins are actually selling for in auctions. Again, this in-bred pricing creates the appearance of a higher quality item. I just simply don't believe it's true. All the best, -Brandon
NGC :smile PCGS edge OK, I just don't think you can beat the NGC EdgeView for Saints and other coins, especially coins with edge lettering and designs. Who really would want to forgo seeing the cool lettering and stars along the coins third edge? Yes, prongs have their setbacks, but until the TPG's can invent a slab that levitates the coin within the slab, this is the best improvement in a long time. I even saw a pronged PCGS holder at a show this weekend, so it seems they too finally like the concept and the prongs are even clear and that is even an improvement! So lets just let them try to outdo each other adjusting to the others headway and we all win. JMO, Matt
I use a complicated formula to determine where I send my coins. Here's a sample: Sundays - PCGS Mondays - NGC Copper - ANACS Silver > Gold < Platinum Full Moon - PCGS Blue Moon - NGC Leap Year - NGC Christmas Day - PCGS Spring Break - NCS :goofer: :goofer: :goofer: Hope that helps. Seriously, it's what you want to do with the slabs after you get them back. Most of my slabs are PCGS. That's about to change when I send my IHC set to NGC.
Prefer NGC for world coins and PCGS for US coins. Agree that NGC service is superior in almost all aspects.
There is enough factual data out there to prove your assertion, however not fully. I do concur with you to a point. The statement is far to general to apply to every PCGS Graded Coin and every PCGS Valuation. The Registry factor has created a " sub market " which has significantly and negatively impacted some valuations of Coins in both camps, but I believe the larger field is with some PCGS Graded Coins. One must remember, that " Marketability " is a major factor for collectors, even if they don't place that issue in the top 3 reasons when they purchase any XYZ coin. Many a collection had to be re-distributed to the open market because of major unforeseen situations, by their owners or heirs, and it is my opinion that some PCGS COINS vs the same coins in an NGC holder, don't hold their value as well as those NGC Coins seem to be much more marketable and having strong re-sale data. Auction archives is a great source of information.
Service - Both are good companies and I've used both pcgs and ngc in the past few years. Never had to deal with a return or warranty issue so can't offer feedback there. Currently using ngc and prefer the service. Holder - I do like the new ngc holders. They'd be even better if they could perfect an acrylic tab to expose the ~15-20 of obv/rev rim that is hidden. That said, if you were to sum the entire area of hidden coin in a pgcs holder vs ngc holder, then you'd likely find that the pcgs holder hides more coin than an ngc holder. Web site - I prefer NGC's. Investment - both are excellent. However, if I owned a $50,000 coin then I'd send it to pcgs in order to open up the pcgs purist market to a potential future sale of the coin. I don't own any 50k coins. Buying - I do not limit my purchases to strictly ngc or pcgs, and often find the biggest deals in 3rd party tpgs like PCI, SEGS, etc... and lets not forget ANACS !, there are some wonderful coins in these "other" slabs. Buy the coin:
Ya gotta love that story. Of course it's not the first time PCGS used the exact same story, and it probably won't be the last. The first time was back in January of 2004 when PCGS claimed the first 1963 PF70 DCAM cent they had ever graded had turned in the slab so they had to down-grade it. But then that coin didn't turn in the slab, the carbon spot was on it when they graded it, and when the coin sold the first time. But they made the claim it had turned in the slab anyway.
There have been 2 similar "studies" done before, 1 by Coin World and 1 by the PNG. Of course neither study had any conclusive evidence and neither proved anything except that all the TPGs use different grading standards - which everybody already knew. Bottom line, you can't compare the grading abilities of companies to one another when they each use different grading standards. Especially when you don't even know what those grading standards are. Actually AU grades, and higher, are quite common with CBH's. As part of a team on the NGC forum I did a study on just how common it was almost 10 years ago. Even back then there were 21,000 CBH's graded AU and above by NGC and PCGS, with thousands of those being MS. I still have the Excel spread sheet I did on it back then if you like to see it.
NGC would never do this...,, Can you imagine NGC cramming a shim in the holder? Coin is bigger than a double-eagle, but it isn't a plancet size they don't have holders for. I have other 100 Franga coins in PCGS holders that are correctly sized. Makes you wonder what kind of lazy shiftless slobs they have working there at PCGS that they would let something like this out the door. The MS62 grade is an insult as well, but that's another story. Not a chance in a million years NGC would EVER do this to a coin.
Don't worry I have a friend where his coins actually bent in the NGC holders. They were thin white metal so-called dollars. Each TPG make there own mistakes.
