Does Collecting Certain Coins Create an Ethical Dilemma?

Dang right. You won't find modern Chinese in my collection for that exact reason.
If I wanted modern Chinese coins, I'd go on eBay and buy a Morgan Dollar!

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Like so many things, banknote designs, symbols, whole countries - if they could get their perfidious paws on it they would steal it. They were some of the most morally corrupt group of people to have lived in quite sometime. Fortunately they were not around long.

 

As many have mentioned, events can change with time. Coins seem to celebrate people of the past who seem to be recreated as a better person in the now. Kazakhstan had a beautiful coin made in 2008 of Ghengis Kahn. According to many historians, you would be hard pressed to find someone who pillaged and plundered more than him. I guess time cures all.

 

This is an excellent point and I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned sooner. You are correct, much of the Nazi symbolism was stolen from other people. Here is another example of the same thing but a little closer to home. The US Army 45th Infantry Division which was based out of Oklahoma. It was originally organized in 1920 as part of Oklahoma's National Guard. Because of their geographic location and history, they choose a common Native American symbol as their shoulder sleeve insignia as a tribute to the southwestern US and their large native population. Here is their original sleeve insignia:

​

When the Nazi Party came to power and began using the Swastika as their symbol...the 45th designed a new one to avoid being linked in anyway to the German party that was invading throughout Europe at the time. In 1939 a new insignia was approved which looked like this:

​

The 45th ended up being federalized into an active force in 1940 and saw combat in WWII in the Mediterranean where they made multiple amphibious landings and eventually were part of the US force that advanced clear into Germany.

 

How many of you would pass up the opportunity to own a bit of "Spanish" gold or silver which was looted/plundered/stolen from the Aztecs and Incas?

 

Anyone who collects US silver already has such pieces. Much of the silver used to make US coins in the early days of the Mint were made from old Spanish silver coinage which circulated freely in the US, and was silver that was by large looted and stolen from the natives of colonial Spain.
Guy

 

And that's the thing right there. How many of the US coins have looted metal in them? Probably all of them to some degree. We melted down old US coins for and made new ones over and over again. There is probably trace amounts of "stolen" silver in every silver coin ever produced by the US or any other country for that matter.

 

I personally don't collect jewish coins.

 

Probably, but they aren't promoted as such for profit. (re: 9/11 ASEs)

 

That is true...but shipwrecked coins are. The fact that an item was at a particular place during a historic event does add to that item. It's as simple as that. If you choose not to own it because you don't like an item being "sold because it was present" at such an event...that's fine. 9/11 was a very unfortunately day in US history. But, these items are historical artifacts...and as a result they do carry a premium because of that. The premium that the market determines is a fair price for them. Do some companies charge way more than that by over promoting it...yes. Should they? No.

 

I've commented in the WTC medal thread and I believe you should collect what you like, as long as you don't physically, financially, hurt anyone in the process. I don't want to own the USM's WTC medal because I don't like the design & the 2 MM choices.

A friend of mine, well known here on CT, left the forum over the sale &/or exhibition of Nazi coins, or some such reason related to Nazi coins. CamaroDMD, I don't know for sure if it was about your coins but, he left. You probably know who I'm speaking of. He was a very active contributer to CT and I told him I was sorry to hear that he made the decision to leave us over this exact issue; WHO and WHAT we can collect. To me, this is wrong. We are free to collect whatever we want, as long as it is legal.
If you don't like Nazi coins, don't look at them, don't collect them, don't refer to them. Go on with your own collection and your life.

 

Shipwreck coins are NOT bloodmoney anything like the 9/11 coins.
There are surviors to 9/11. Widows, children, etc...
Modern shipwrecks with mass loss of life are dedicated as 'cemeteries' for that reason.
Find me an orphan from an 18th century shipwreck, and I will be critical of shipwreck coins.

Like I said, it's not so much the owning, it's the profiteering.

 

Indeed a lot of foreign coinage was melted to manufacture US coins in the 19th century. Researchers believe that most gold holdings of more than a few ounces will have a probability of there being some portion that was stolen, looted, pillaged etc at some point in it's history. Gold as an element is not traceable to the source if the impurities were removed in the refining process. Switzerland will never admit it, but I have to believe that gold from the Nazis made it into the country and maybe even it's coinage. As for the dental gold, you will know a lot more about it than I do - but could there have been a change over time as far as elements used in crowns etc?

 

Hitler was a devil. Does that mean we eliminate all he defiled?

Nice plaques, and, no offense taken. Art and beauty for all to behold.

 

What difference does it make if they died 10 years ago or 200? A tragedy is a tragedy is it not? It makes no difference when they died or who they were.

So, do you think a WTC ASE should sell for the same amount as a normal ASE? Remember, ultimately it's the buyer setting the price not the seller.

 

Did not read the whole thread. I do not see any ethical dilemma with collecting these type things. I find the collecting of some things, not coins, to be a little distasteful to myself. But I have no problem with others collecting these things. If you like 3rd reich coins then collect them. I mean if you go by "some peoples" logic on the those coins then there would be no collecting roman or jewish ancients. Just my opinion.

 

What the Chinese are doing is hardly new. Back in the 1960s and 1970s all sorts of world crowns were counterfeited. I believe in Italy. I was at a coin dealer in San Jose a few years ago, -the dealer actually collected the fakes for his own collection. He brought out a tray with at least 300 crowns on it, all of them fake, many of them different. Was fascinating to look through them, several dozen I had personally seen before, others I knew about. But to see so many in one big heap, it was a real treat. While I don't support the manufacture of counterfeits, I don't think they are nearly the threat to the hobby that many seem to think they are. It certainly increases the value of our own expertise in authenticating coins, so in some ways it's a boost to the hobby. A far bigger concern, in my opinion, is the US government proclivity to go along with foreign government efforts to sieze coins based on "national patrimony" --now that really is a threat to the hobby.

 

Interesting. Its just like the fact that the breath of air you just took probably has an atom in it that was breathed by Julius Caesar or Adolf Hitler. The earth is really just one big organism.

I would seriously disagree that every US coin would have stolen silver in it though. You forget the massive new issues comprised entirely of Comstock load silver. I would say that the US, as a "new" country with massive resources, would have much less "stolen" silver than most, unless you simply are counting Nevada as stolen from either the indians or Mexico.

Chris

 

I didn't forget about the Comstock Load...and your statement applies to first generation coins from it. So, I would imagine that many Morgan Dollars are "clean." But, as soon as Morgan's from the load and put in a pot with older coins and melted all bets are off. Now, I'm not saying for a second that I think this way. Someone just mentioned looted material being used in US coins...and then I took it to the next step. My point was...at what point do we draw the line. It is different for everyone. I personally think everyone should collect what makes them happy.

 

I understand, and its a great point, I was just pointing out how the US is at least a little different than others.

The point, really, is that the objects are not to blame for their history. Even if Hitler himself struck the coin, the coin is not Hitler, and should not be reviled like him. Yes, if some idiots wish to use objects in their veneration of a monster, that is their problem. I still stand by my statement that as long as I do not purchase directly from a monster, I do not feel guilty for where a coin came from.

Btw, I know Hitler is fresh in historical minds, and gets talked about a lot, but he is simply one of a string of monsters from history. I put Mao and Stalin alongside him, but there are so many others they are unnameable. Pol Pot, Kim Il Sung, Idi Amin, and those are just in the last few decades. This issue goes far beyond the third reich. Most ancient coins were struck by leaders who thought it appropriate to enslave captives, and to kill every being in a city if they upset them. Ghengis Khan had a policy to slaughter every living being, down to the rats and the fish in ponds, of a city that opposed him. Heck, ancient Carthage had a practice of sacrificing their first born sons in a fire while alive in times of trouble to appease their god, and their coins are very popular. Genocide was common, as well as human sacrifices in various forms. I guess I am saying if third reich coins bother you, I would not bother with almost any ancient coins at all.

Chris