need opinions on a toned gold coin

I am getting the following coin on approval (can return it no problem), however it's so unusual I would really like to get some feedback and opinions.

I’ve been looking for a $2.5 Indian gold with an “original surface” (not dipped) for some time and also most of you know I love coins with interesting color. Gold is an inert metal so it tends not to be colorful – so I was looking for a gold Indian that simply had original darker tangerine-orange color and some good color variation. Then I stumbled on this 1926 Indian – with color that I have never seen on a gold coin.

I know that since the color is sort of wild it probably wouldn’t cross to PCGS; but I really don't know. PCGS seems not to cross much these days.

Here is the information from the seller: "The 1926 Quarter Eagle that is what I would term a "color specialists coin". We purchased this coin because of the coin's spectacular and unusual coloration. We were also influenced to buy it because it was housed in a circa 1990 NGC "fattie" slab -- evidence that it has been slabbed for 21 years or so. To us that is an indicator that the color is stable, which is a plus. This is a cool coin with vibrant blue and rose toning on the obverse and reverse. We acquired this piece at a recent show from a gent who told us he had inherited it in a leather pouch, sent it in when NGC was a fairly new company, and kept it ever since. And this cataloger has no reason to doubt that story, since I have seen this sort of toning on similarly stored gold coins while doing appraisals through the years. Definitely distinctive, quite unusual and very eye-appealing. Please note that we paid a large premium for the rare color when we purchased it, and the proper home for this coin is in a collection of wildly toned coins -- not a general U.S. gold type set."

What do you all think: Love it? Hate it?

All opinions are appreciated.

 

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If you like it that's all that counts. If you send it to PCGS , send it as a crossover in the NGC slab

 

that is absolutely stunning. I love it.

 

I like it because toning is interesting to me. It may be a 64 deducted for the color as a technical grade. And yes, at some point it came in contact with some sort of chemical to do that and leather has all sorts of chemicals in it, you should see how leather slimes silver and eats copper. Anyway, as a rule, and one I sometimes need reminded is when it comes to any antique or coin I try to never let a story influence me. Never buy the story, just the coin! I know that the paper insert on old fatty slabs can tone up the top of morgan dollars, but I don't think they could do that to gold, so I would be inclined to think the toning happened before it was slabbed. As far as a PCGS crossover, who cares, it is already slabbed in an old fatty! Probably it's final resting place in my opinion. I suppose the seller has the price ratcheted up there, but it would be hard for me to pay more than 2Xs for it or I would think a guy might be buried in it, but being how it does match your collection pretty well and you might be hard pressed to find another one next week, I don't think anyone here would fault you for stretching out on it.

 

IMO, I think that this coin is graded properly, MS63, and the toning is probably from the tanning chemicals in the original leather pouch. I am by no means an expert or experienced in old gold, but I like the h*** out of this coin.

 

pretty hardcore looking

 

love it!

 

thanks for all the feedback ... very helpful to hear some other opinions. i never really know when an unusual coin speaks to me if I am out in left field. nice to know a few others on this board like this.

yes, leather has all sorts of chemicals in it. it really brings the whole NT vs AT question into play. I would think that whoever put this coin in the leather pouch did NOT do it with the intention of toning the coin.

coppermania, you got the toning premium exactly right ... the seller was at 2.2x ... and I was able to negotiate down to 1.9x ... thing is you just don't see this sort of color in gold very often (i never have before) -- so there is just no other backup coins I could look at that are similar if I walked away. granted, i would have felt better if I could have squeezed it down to 1.6x or so. what's a couple of hundred dollars between friends ... right?

 

That is a good lookin' coin. Nice pickup!

 

A few observations:

The toning is in all likelihood from the copper in the coin. US gold coins from the early 20th century are prone to copper spotting, and once in a while the copper will be spread over the surface.

I don't think that being in a 21-year-old slab is indicative that the color is stable. I'm not familiar with the "fatties", but if they are not completely airtight, then the toning could have easily occurred after the coin was slabbed. Also, I have heard that the grading services were a little hard on toned coins back in those days, so maybe it was "clean" when it was slabbed.

The coin also has some serious digs in it-- between the L and I, and the I and B on the obverse, and by the eagle's head, above IN, and from the E to the B in "E PLURIBUS" on the reverse.

 

I would shy away from that coin, personally. The toning doesn't add to the eye appeal, IMO.

 

Thanks for all the feedback ... great comments.

Do you all like this 1928 Indian better (left photo)?

This 1928 (left) is the other Gold Indian that I am considering. I like the 1928 on the left, which shows great original color and nice color variation, but my eye keeps getting drawn to what appears to be a hole in the tail. (I actually think it's a black spot, maybe a copper spot from the copper alloy that was not properly mixed?). Another positive is it's one grade higher MS64 and graded by PCGS (which some people think is a better grading company)

I love the obverse on the 1926, right photo, (which I posted in the OP and posted again here to make comparisons easier) but less fond of the reverse. It is striking and usual though. And me being a colorfully-toned coin collector, it could be a striking addition. However it's one grade lower MS63 and graded by NGC (a company which some people think is more lax on questionably toned coins).

Which do you like better?

The 1928 with a spot on the eagles tail ... or the 1926 leather pouch toned ... or neither (i should keep looking)?

vs.

By the way, my interest is a 2.5 Indian with "original" color (a coin showing some color variation that is not dipped out to a uniform bright gold).

 

Well Winged, now it is just time for you to leave the nest and fly on your own ! You are a pretty advanced collector from what I can see, so why not just buy what you like! That buttery filtered sheen of un-dipped gold is pretty hard to see from even hi res pictures and should probably be viewed in hand. Most all coins in slabbed 3,4, and 5 holders will always be desirable, so go out there and trust your instincts and knock'em dead!

 

Just asking a question so please do not throw internet rocks. Is it really toning if it is on a non-reactive metal? What I am saying it, if these chemicals were in the leather, did those chemicals actually tone, (tarnish), the coin or are they simply laying on the surface of the coin? I understand there is some silver and copper in US gold coinage, are we saying that part toned from the chemical exposure?

A follow up question would be if this coin was .999 gold, and same thing. Would that be toning or surface contamination? I thought toning had to be metal activity.

Chris

 

I have been collecting as long as Winged, and I might also ask for advice for a major purchase. For example, if I become too attracted to a coin, maybe someone else can objectively point out its flaws that I have overlooked, or maybe they can point out a striking characteristic or variety. So even though some of us have been in the hobby for more than 4 decades now, there's always something more that we can learn.

 

Thanks Coppermania, but don't push me out of the nest!!! Chirp Chirp.

Medoraman, The 10% copper is very reactive and can tone. I am not sure if the discoloration we see on old gold is actually JUST the copper toning, or if gold itself can tone. Maybe we need a chemistry (metals) expert on here! I have my doubts that the color is just laying on the coin, like someone dumping a bottle of food coloring on a coin. I would think it's unlikely that NGC would let something like that slide through, but who knows. So you think that if someone just rinsed this coin, the color would wash off? My gut feeling is the chemicals in the leather reacted with the copper in the coin; the same way chemicals (sulfur) in old albums and mint set cardboard and tissue paper reacted with coins, but I really don't know the ultimate answer to your question.

I totally agree with Collector 1966 ... I never think I know enough and I learn TONS from all the experts on this site (and I've been an off and on collector for 44 years!). I REALLY APPRECIATE all the great comments and feedback. Extremely helpful and insightful. You guys help me learn and maybe (by osmosis) all the questions and answers generated help others learn as well! The other thing I find helpful by this is by getting a gauge of what other people like (what their opinions are), I get a better feel for what might be easier to sell (should I ever decide to sell anything down the road).

 

I get what you are saying colector1966. I was only suggesting Winged is perfectly capable of finding quality coins and build his own set and not a CoinTalk greatest hits popularity registry set. I guess it can be useful to ask for advice, but it usually comes back through the lens of the opinion giver. So if that means I get another member coming to some sort of scathing brotherly defense, well, that's pretty cool too and I can take it.

There have been MANY threads on "if" and "how" gold tones. Gold tones. And Winged, both coins are really nice, you have a good eye and if it is your cash then it is your choice. JMO

 

I think what you say Winged about the other metals toning on the coin is fair Winged. I was just asking, and pointing out my thought also that is was the copper or silver in reality toning.

I know Doug think gold tones, but I am much less sure. When I see photos of ancient gold coins coming out of the ground looking like freshly struck coins, I am in doubt. I have seen way too many photos from the field of fresh finds, and the copper is almost unrecognizable, the silver is covered in "horn silver", but the gold is perfectly unaffected. My opinion is pure gold will not tone, and any toning you see if either toning of impurities or surface contamination from air pollution, etc.

 

I would stay away from the OPs coin in mind to purchase. I would much rather buy the 1928. The toning on the 1926 just doesn't look correct IMO and so if there is a doubt, IMO I just walk away.

Gold coins do not tend to tone, even if it has some other metal content involved. In fact, there are probably a handful of nicely toned gold coins out there.

This one, I believe still owned by Paul (Lehigh96) 1924 NGC graded




And there was one from Anaconda Rare Coins which sold in excess of $8,000.


But if you like the coin, buy it and enjoy it.

 

While I respect your opinion TonedCoins, I think Winged coin looks very original. The $20 you posted is something I have never seen before, but darkish toning like Winged looks like it came out of an old time holding. I have seen maybe 100 coins like Winged's over the years, (unfortunately I would bet many have been dipped over time), I have never seen anything like the St Gaudens you posted. Not saying anything bad about it, just that it is more unusual IMHO than Winged's coin. Both are pretty coins, with the St Gauden's being very pretty, just unusual.

Edit: Sorry, didn't notice they were two of them. Still, unusual toning to me, but very pretty.