why NGC coins do not cross to PCGS (a theory)

My observations on the differences: PCGS is more likely to give a numerical grade to an early US coin, gold and silver especially--than NGC, that net grades any coin they regard as "cleaned" etc. This observation is based on limited experience. NGC is more likely to AU58 coins than PCGS; to get a PCGS 58 the coin has to be all there.

Since the statistics are closely held by both services it would be hard to get the percentage of crossovers. NGC is not doing crossovers for any service but PCGS now. I guess they have their reasons for this policy.

 

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Is the fact that PCGS only allows PCGS coins in their Registry a part of the aura surrounding the higher values? Possibly, but we can't really be sure, can we? Is the kool-aid really that potent? I don't know because I've never had the urge to drink it. It's also interesting to note that the PCGS Price Guide is sometimes high, but how often is it actually used under the terms of their buy-back guarantee? I guess we won't know this either because we aren't privvy to the decisions that are the (private) domain of PCGS, and PCGS, alone. All we really know is that some PCGS coins DO sell for more than their NGC counterparts. That's fine with me. If I have the choice of two identically and accurately graded coins, but the NGC coin costs less, it's a no-brainer for me. Buy the NGC coin and use the savings for another purchase.

Like Doug said, the debate over which company is better has been going on forever. Both companies have their strong points and weaknesses, and just for the sake of the discussion, here is just one more example.......

Several years ago, I purchased an 1898-O Morgan slabbed by (old) ANACS, MS63DMPL. A couple years later, I decided to crack it out and submit it to NGC. I was sure that it was undergraded. To me, the mirrors were not an issue. I could almost read the 8" mark of a ruler. Keep in mind, that this was at a time when bodybags were still used. Well, it came back from NGC in a bag, "MS Details - Altered Surfaces". I took it with me to FUN 2008, and asked David Lange for his opinion. He couldn't be 100% positive, but he did say that Altered Surfaces is sort of a catch-all for minor problems. He did add that the coin had an unusual haze on the fields, and he thought conservation might be the best remedy. Anyway, I also brought along my certificate for 8 Free gradings from PCGS, so I removed the coin from the bag and included it in my submission to PCGS. PCGS graded it MS64PL.

Well, I was partially satisfied knowing that it got a bump from 63 to 64, but PL instead of DMPL? Was ANACS right that it should be DMPL? Was PCGS using a ruler that was only 5" long? Or, should the coin have been bagged like it was at NGC? Maybe I will submit it to NCS and then see what NGC has to say. If any of you may be thinking that it's not a good idea to "chase good money after bad", forget it! It doesn't matter to me. I JUST WANT TO KNOW!

Chris

 

I've always understood why the crossover success rate is so low is because PCGS can't see the edge of the coin in the NGC holder, and they tend to be conservative as a result.

If you really believe in the coin, crack it and submit it raw. If you don't believe in it, why did you buy it in the first place?

 

Can anybody access this info or do you need to be a member ?

 

Readers, please don't take anything posted on any Internet forum as fact. There is a lot of faulty thinking and story telling that goes on, as well as made up stories, and trolling. I don't know what the case is in this thread, but there are any number of points that I disagree with.

Rule #1 is that no one wins an argument on the Internet, so arguing back and forth tends to be a complete waste of time. Readers, please do your own research on pricing. Auction archives at Heritage, Teletrade, Ebay are excellent resources, and every collector would do well to have a good understanding of pricing at auction for the coins they collect. For some coins in some grades, there isn't much difference between various services at the same grade. For other coins there is a wide average difference at auction. If there are a lot of data points, it becomes evidence, vs. one or two exceptional coins. Examine the evidence when you are going to be the one spending the money, don't read and accept the comments written here. For a lot of coins that I collect, some of the comments are completely off base. They might be true for whatever coins the writer collects, so they really aren't lies, or even false, but the comments may or may not apply to coins that another person might collect.

 

Chris, what a great story and very enlightening. Thanks for sharing. So in your case NGC was stricter and PCGS more lax (who knows who is right). Please post any additional grades you collect. It's a great experiment.

 

I was at a show some years ago. I had two early $5 gold pieces, that I thought would upgrade. I submitted them to NGC, they no-graded, but PCGS gave both of them AU grades. That is the style or grading philosophy difference, I think. NGC will give better grades to no problem coins, but is more likely to no-grade coins with any problems. If you really need to get a numerical grade with a valuable coin with minor problems, submit it first thing at the ANA show on walkthrough. It may be your best shot at the highest grade.

 

owle, that's a good tip ... i will remember that

doug21, i am pretty sure it's public info

 

I only have experience with sending in 2 Morgan dollars in NGC slabs to PCGS. They both crossed at the same grade.

A counter-argument is that PCGS wants to have as many of their slabs on the market as possible. So if the coins do qualify for a cross, I think they would cross them because more people would see the PCGS slabs.

Call me naive, but I still give PCGS and NGC the benefit of the doubt when it comes to integrity. I've heard high level reps and graders give talks at conferences from these companies, and I believe their integrity.

 

If you trust PCGS / NGC and like their product fair enough. I have posted here in the past some of my experiences with TPGs which have driven me away from their practices. For me if I like the coin the plastic and label have little or no relevance. (This may not be the case for a dealer or private seller who rely on the number to achieve a premium.) As examples I have the Lincoln Coin and Chronicles set. I am not convinced that graded coins supersede in any way shape or form this wonderful gem from the Mint. I am also getting the 5 Oz ATBs (both bullion and P's). I like these tremendously in OGP.

 

I can see your point on everything except this statement. So you are saying that the ONLY reason that every company in America is not unethical is because they haven’t had the opportunity to be? Are you a Marxist or a Statist? Do you honestly believe that someone else should tell you how and when to run your business? A company’s purpose is to make money, but that does not mean that every company is run by a bunch of thugs who are waiting to rip off the public at a drop of the hat!

 

There is most certainly some truth to what you have posted wingedLiberty but I do believe it goes both ways between PCGS/NGC. I also think Leadfoot's point about not seeing the rim comes into play...maybe less so with the edgeview holders but it certainly could keep some coins from crossing. I don't believe it's a myth or rumor that pcgs tends to grade a bit stricter in an effort to improve their standing in the hobby but I also don't think it is nearly as devious in nature as the pcgs naysayers would have one believe. There is a trade off....grade too strict and folks will send there coins to NGC so it's a fine line.

As for me....every single coin that I have sent to PCGS in an NGC holders for crossover has not crossed...100% DNC...and of those that I cracked out....90% did holder at PCGS at the same grade as on the NGC holder. Mind you the sample size was small...around 10 coins and I have not tried the reverse with sending PCGS coins to NGC so I might find similar results I was just providing my personal results as they relate to the discussion.

 

This made me laugh! Actually it's purely based on observation. Did you ever hear of Enron, Worldcom, AIG, Goldman Sachs. How about the cigarette companies that spike cigarettes to make them more addictive and cover up health risks. How about the Gulf Oil spill (the profit motive is what caused them to rush and not take proper safety precautions -- do you think BP actually cares about the people that live on the gulf coast?). There are just too many examples to list.

Are there ethical companies out there? Probably. But i have just seen too many examples of greed over ethics to think that most corporations are the friend of the public or have the good of the public in mind when they make decisions.

The mandate for corporations is to maximize profits for shareholders, not to save the dolphins or be a public benefactor. There usually has to be laws or regulations passed to keep corporations in line. They don't seem to have a moral compass when left to their own devices.

 

Wow Kryptonite, that's really interesting. Thanks for sharing that.

Your small sample of data pretty much proves the theory put forth in the original post. With the coins slabbed they were all DNC'd by PCGS. Crack those same coins out and send them into PCGS raw ... and bammo ... they suddenly all grade with the same grade assigned by NGC. Geez.

 

So.. Out of the thousands of companies in the United States.... You name a handful and conclude that all companies are too greedy to have ethics? Does it not occur to you that there are PEOPLE that run those companies? That there are some that will make wrong decisions or just outright lie and steal but there are plenty more that try to do the right thing? You are basically saying that everyone on this forum who owns or runs a company will cheat you if given the chance. I think your view says a lot more about yourself then it does any company in a capitalist environment.

 

relax, i trust small businesses 1000x more than big corporations.

 

Where do you think big corporations come from? They don't just appear over night...

 

Well, I'd think everybody knows the reason for that, PCGS just has higher quality standards than NGC, they're the best!!!

Oh. In that case, never mind.

 

Seldom.

Your coin has been submitted at least three times. It has been closely examined by at least nine highly qualified professional graders. It has come back with three different opinions ranging from MS-63DMPL to MS-64PL, to altered surfaces. Now you want it to be submitted again, be looked at by three more highly qualified professional graders, and potentially get yet a fourth different opinion. After all that just exactly what are you going to "KNOW"? That any time you send in a coin the grade is a shot in the dark? Tell you what submit it a few dozen more times to get enough data points to develop a bell curve with the consensus grade being the peak of the curve. Then we will know what the grade "is".

That's because there is not a lot of great interest in breaking stories about companies that are acting ethically and doing what they are supposed to be doing. One of the local newspapers decided to cave to pressure about "all you ever publish are negative stories. Why don't you publish the good news?" So they added a section to the paper called Good News! I quickly learned that this section of the paper could just be discarded without reading as it never contained anything of interest.

 

I want to send it to NCS to find out if what David thought about the "odd haze" on the surfaces will have any effect on the results and which three professionals, if any, were correct. I can live with the results whatever they may be, but it's killing me not knowing. You should also know that my intentions were never to get the upgrade for the purpose of selling it. It will never be sold as long as I'm alive, and at that point, I won't care.

Chris