Tell me again why people like NGC

I'm with you, Medoraman. I really dislike this tendency of the TPG's to cite first strikes (they're meaningless with moderns), S mintmarks when who really knows or cares, etc. I'm afraid that's all marketing and propping up the stock price.

But honestly, the TPG guarantees are real. In the last few years I have gotten payouts from PCGS more than several times. Not for counterfeits. For questionable color, for over-grades, for altered surfaces. I don't mean to buy bad coins and win through guarantees. Sometimes the coin spoils and you didn't see it coming.

So I invoke the guarantee. I've lost at NGC every time. Grr. I've only lost at PCGS twice, over debates about grade. The payout hasn't always been perfectly happy but it's been there. And I think that's pretty cool.

Here's a 1931-S Lincoln, MS66RD that looked great several years ago. Before the spot on the lower obverse developed. When I bought it at a Heritage auction it looked fine. Part of the Ron Bozarth collection. PCGS agreed it had been doctored, paid me a fair price, kept it for themselves, and re-housed it in a genuine holder, "questionable color". Good for them!
Lance.

 

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lkeigwin, just so i understand what you wrote. are you saying if a coin develops a spot while in a holder, then it was doctored? can you elaborate?

 

I think I agree with that. The rest of the way, let's just say, that direction is "influenced."

Well, I wouldn't necessarily say "all." Enough of it, though. Compromise with me, here.

 

Lance, and just how do you believe they determined the coin had been "doctored," and on what rational basis do you believe they're calling the toning "questionable?" If you think you can, take me through that.

 

Last week my Uncle and his family came to town and we had a great visit. He is a coin collector from way back and I can say this must run in the family. So we are looking at some coins in my collection late one night and going over this and that and he says that he would love to get back into it and has been out for some time. He said that so much has changed but it is time for him to get "current". That struck a note to what I am hearing here. I guess that is why I am here, so I can stay current.....

So if the OP is a EAC person that starts to make sense to me. When I first started hitting major shows I noticed right away that the dealers in that were mostly only selling raw coins exclusively. I guess that category of coin collecting is a sort of deeper subculture that doesn't need or appreciate and prefers to forgo the slab. Its "old school" I guess and that is always good with me. Whenever I converse with a knowledgeable EAC person and I gather that they resist TPGs I don't waist a breath touting the benefits as there must be something I'm missing and make it a time to listen. But so many other coins and aspects of collecting benefit from them if you ask me.

 

Not this argument again. You have to take the good with the bad. They've done more good for the hobby than bad. If people want to buy first strikes, let them. Nobody makes anybody buy them.

It would be better to be left at the mercy of the ethics of every individual dealer selling a coin? I'm sure that would go to the benefit of the collector. Or not.

It would be better to have significant shipwreck coins just thrown in with the general population and considered damaged so some ebay seller can get a hold of them and fake tone them? Lets be serious. Be thankful they exist now for the good they do.

 

My guess was that a spot had been removed well enough for PCGS not to have detected it. Over time it returned and resembled a spot that had been worked, not an unfortunate copper spot that sometimes develops naturally and looks quite different.

PCGS agreed and bought the coin.
Lance.

 

My thoughts on this are not based on one TPG or the other however, has anyone watched the video over at the NGC site about a coins journey thru NGC? I just finished watching it for the first time and have to say I was surprised at the handling of the coins during both the grading and encapsulation process's.

Seems like no one wears hand protection of any kind and while in the grading room they appear to hold the coins by the edges there appears to be enough opportunity to mar the surface of a coin on several occasions.

In the encapsulation segment, the coins are laying on a surface and the white holder is pressed against the coin, after which the person clearly fingers the surface of the coin shown.

I have several graded by NGC and PCGS and never noticed any issues and wonder if the process at PCGS and other TPG companies are similar.
Is this just being paranoid or am I missing something...

http://www.ngccoin.com/Coin-Video-Archive.aspx

 

It's a good-looking example of the low-mintage wheat and that's a shame it turned in the slab. I'd imagine, though, they simply gave you the benefit of the doubt. In other words, it doesn't necessarily follow that they "knew" anything. Well, I shouldn't say "anything." They knew enough to know that's their trademark, their good name on that slab, and that to the degree the consumer loses confidence in that, they're finished. At any rate, whatever the case may be, I'm very glad it resolved favorably for you, Lance.

 

Thanks, Eddiespin. I too was glad with the decision.

Your thinking is admirable but believe me, PCGS does nothing for altruism. As much as I favor them, when it comes to who loses money over a debatable matter, PCGS always wins.

I guess what I'm saying is, if the matter could have gone either way, I would have lost. I have never seen a TPG make a decision, that might cost them a lot of money, because it was good for customer relations.
Lance.

 

Well, I'll give us this much credit. While we both may not be persuaded by the other's position (or, at least, not entirely), we at least got the positions out on the table. Credit that to the open way this forum is moderated. That is to say, while I'm not necessarily saying I think I'd have been banned over at PCGS had I pressed this issue calling into question that TPG's inability to detect so-called "doctored coins," there, I'm not necessarily saying I think I wouldn't have been, either.

Chalk one up for the open forums welcoming all points of view.

 

If I may be so bold to ask...why? How will it pay for me, a collector, not a dealer, nor anyone who plans on selling a single coin within their lifetime, to buy into the grading program? Grade isn't a priority, or even a slight concern within the matrix of my collecting experience. That may seem unfathomable to many collectors today, and my reasoning may take a 90 volume book to explain to those who don't get it, but that doesn't mean I can't assemble just as desirable and worthy collection as those who decide to buy cheap plastic only.
Guy

 

In a nut shell, very frustrating!

 

NGC has messed up my order on nearly every submission! They also take an average of 1.5 months to get back to me. I have to call them everytime I submit. I overnighted about 20 lincoln prez dollars the day they came out and paid all the fees only to get them back without the ER label. They claim a few presidentials are silver dollars! They graded my weak edge errors 1 day, then when I submit 20 more (as soon as I recieve the first) they claim they dont grade those errors and havent for years now! BS!!! I have sent them numerous legit mint errors only to have them unattributed and slabbed with low ms grades! with a note that says, mint error is not significant enough!! They admit its a mint error...but its not good enough for them to attribute? No refund or anything! thanks for the ms64 prez dollars NGC! Worth about $5...thanks.
Do not submit coins to them around a holiday either...and I mean even 1 month before a holiday.
They will tell you the grader was on vacation and take 2 months to get them back!
I have taken a few courses taught by NGC graders. I learned a lot, but I will say that almost every slab we looked at, the grader said..."its in ms68..but i see now its a 69...or 67. Nearly all the grades were wrongly attributed!
Also, its always fun trying to look at an edge error in NGC slabs.
Any problems you have with ngc, talk to Melissa. Shes the only one who will actually help you get your money back if they F up. Dont accept no for an answer...write them an email too!

 

That's a pretty good rant.

Why do you keep going back to them if they've messed up nearly every submission?
Lance.

 

Yeah. And why are you subbing modern crap .. er coins?

 

Grading differences of MS67-69 must be tough to determine, especially while still in a slab. I'm sure subtle differences such as these are also grader dependent.

BTW: Opie and Anthony want to know when Hamptons Howie is coming back live on air. I've never seen someone take more vacation. :devil:

guy

 

If you found an uncirculated modern error coin, you wouldnt submit it?
I continue to deal with NGC because PCGS is like $50 per error grade.
Its worth the fee to double the value of the coin.
Its sad that nobody cares about modern coins anymore.
My rant is 100% true.
Its my opinion that NGC has been slacking pretty bad lately.

 

If that's the case, I get better customer service at my McDonald's. I wonder what they get paid over there to sit and market grade coins all day long, anyway. It must be better than minimum wage, at least for the full-timers who don't have real jobs in the real world; otherwise, how could they support themselves?

 

The graders there are not paid much and they are not happy. They cant publicly sell coins anymore once they get the grader gig.