1955-1964 Proof Sets - Identifying Reproduction Envelopes

Hey everyone,

Sorry if this question has been answered before, I've searched without any luck.

I'm fairly new to coin collecting and looking for information on how to identify original vs. reproduction envelopes for 1955 (flat pack)-1964 proof sets. I've been buying sets from eBay and there appear to be a couple variations of "originals" for each year, in addition to loads of "reproductions." I don't want to get ripped off myself, or possibly sell the sets later as "original" and rip off someone else.

Some oddities I've found:

• 1955/1956 envelopes of side-open and top-open styles (both styles appear very dated/original)
• 1957 set where the date appears in a different font than the "P.C." (looks like it was rubber stamped on later)
• Differences in the print darkness within a given year
• Differences in the envelope color within a given year
• Different shaped reverse flaps within a given year
• Envelopes that appear to have never been sealed

I don't know which of these indicators can be used to determine authenticity, and which are just variations from the Mint. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

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As I understood it years ago, the Philadelphia Mint had a contract with various vendors to provide envelopes for the mint & proof sets. This alone would give you variations in production runs from one company to the next.

Reproduction envelopes are often used to sell "UNOPENED" sets where the original envelope was opened where someone already examined the contents.

 

Were they really sold "sealed" back in the day? Or were they open? Think I've heard both.

 

I've never understood why anyone would seriously believe in such a thing as "un-opened" envelopes for sets that date back to the 1950's. I mean - seriously - put yourself in the shoes of the person who ordered such a set back then. Are you seriously going to order a set from the mint - eagerly anticipate its arrival for many weeks (back then) - and then when it finally arrives, you don't even bother to *open* the dad-gum thing! It's strains all credulity to believe in such a scenario.

I remember personally ordering a Bicentennial proof set from the San Francisco Mint in the mid-70's when I was a kid and I absolutely could not wait to unwrap my new prize when it finally arrived - many months after I had originally mailed in my order.

I can only conclude that there is no such thing as an "unopened" envelope. It's pure nonsense designed to prey upon the naive.

 

I have several boxes of US Mint products I ordered back in the early 70's that I never bothered to open. It can also happen with collectors who don't go out and track down the coins they need themselves, such as those who just have dealers track down the pieces they need. An example of this was the King Farouk collection. When it was cataloged after his ouster, it was discovered that a large portion of it was still in the unopened shipping packages from the dealers he bought them from.

 

this discussion has appeared here several times. It is my opinion as well that they came from the US Mint unsealed and that the envelopes (having a glued flap) have sealed over time with atmospheric conditions, not that they came sealed and so many went un-opened due to indifference about the coins.

I also agree that many are sold in re-conditioned envelopes. If you enter the conversation under the assumption that you're NOT the first to see the coins, then you'll be safer from the wolves

 

Like Conder, I too have unopened cardboard shipping boxes that I bought from the Mint. They're not as old.....2008 P&D AK & HI SQ rolls and 2006 P&D Return to Monticello bags.....but still, I've seen Scotsman auctions of 50's Mint and Proof sets still in the original, sealed shipping boxes.

Chris

 

I have a few that I've bought off ebay as well. On occasion you can get a really good deal. That said, once I got a beat up envelope that certainly looked over 50yrs old but another time the envelope looked brand spankin' new. If you want to buy them then that's fine but most of them on ebay have been opened numerous times and thouroughly gone through in search of cameos and high grades. It's similar to buying unsearched rolls of Lincoln's, no such thing. If you want the coins you buy them, but try to go into every deal with eyes wide open and don't believe everything you read. enjoy the coins, that's the main thing! :thumb:

 

If your not sure don't fall for the hype of "Unopened" I for one will never pay a preminium on eBay. If I saw the item myself at a show or dealers store then maybe. But after selling most of my sets for a loss last year I found out they are value traps in most cases. Yes every once in blue moon soneone finds a CAM or DCAM coin is a set but those are usually long shots by long time pros in the search process.
For the novice collector look around they are every where find a nice set at a nice price and let the hype fly by.

 

Thank you for the replies. Especially BR549 for the comment about the Philadelphia mint contracting different vendors to provide the envelopes, since that explains the variations.

Personally, I do not pay any premium for unopened sets as I'd guess there's more sealed sets with ugly coins from poor storage than there are cameos and errors. Even for the opened sets though, I'm still not sure when the envelope is authentic or not. My main concern is at some point falsely selling the set as authentic OGP when it isn't. I have attached a couple pictures:

• Picture 1: a 1955 set (which I believe is authentic), and a 1957 set which feels dated, but the way the date is printed seems a little suspicious.
• Picture 2: two 1960 sets of different color
• Picture 3: two 1961 sets of different color

If there are any give-a-ways on these to indicate they're replicas, or anything there that would help identify them as original, please point it out. For now I basically go by the feel of the paper, and look for the diagonal "fade lines" on the front, which I'm guessing are from where the envelopes were stacked or something prior to being used and appear over time as the envelopes age (not sure if this is a sure-fire sign of actual aging or not).

One other oddity, which I do not have anymore, was a set with the address line as "PHILADELPHIA 30. PA." instead of "PHILADELPHIA 30, PA.", which I assume was a reproduction.

 

I'm still not buying it....

I suppose, if you are King Farouk of Egypt, that *maybe* you don't open all the stuff you buy, but let's face it, most of the stuff offered on eBay as "unopened" didn't come from the King Farouk collection.

Besides, even if one is willing to accept the possibility that a tiny percentage of original buyers of 1950's proof sets didn't open them up, how likely is it that those who subsequently came to possess these sets also chose to leave them sealed? I think this is especially unlikely over the past 20 years as the slabbing craze and the passion for "cameo" proofs has driven the prices of those pieces *way* up. Who in their right mind today would sell you a truly unopened set for chump change when they can open the envelope - check it for high-dollar slabbable cameos - and then re-seal it if nothing great is found? In other words - if you are bright enough to treasure hunt through these envelopes, don't you think the guy who had it before you might have had the same idea?

My own feeling is that if you want to treasure hunt for high-dollar cameo proofs in old "un-opened" envelopes, don't pay a premium for the privilege. Pay what you would for a run-of-the-mill set of brilliant proofs. If someone wants a big premium there is a 99%+ change, IMHO, that you are being scammed. Especially if the eBay listing goes on and on with tantalizing phrases like "cameo proofs inside?" and such, which is the sort of cheesy come-on I usually see appended to these listings.

Nope - I'll pass on that stuff. I don't believe in the tooth fairy, golden unicorns, unsearched bags of wheat cents or unopened proof sets being sold on eBay. Total rubbish... :rollling:

 

Those are all "unopened" envelopes, so you've never seen the coins? I own proof sets b/c I like the coins. Or for the silver value, with the common date ones. To me, this would be like buying expensive photographs, or paintings, but not being able to look at them, b/c they were "worth more" in a wrapper. It seems like somehow "coin collecting" turns into "envelope collecting" for some, but to each his own.

Here's a 1958 set in a Capitol holder. I know the orig. flat packs are usually worth a bit more, but I like this one.

 

All the scanned envelopes are opened (most on the edge where it isn't as visible in the scan). Unfortunately none of them have coins worth posting a picture of though. That's a nice looking '58!

Thanks again for the replies.

 

for envelopes from the 1950s and 1960s, can you tell just by the outside envelope if whether a mint set or a proof set were inside?

 

neat stuff

 

for envelopes from the 1950s and 1960s, can you tell just by the outside envelope if was either a mint set or a proof set? are there different markings on the envelope indicating which one?

 

I was not aware that there were issues with original fake outside envelopes for the 1955 - 64 Proof sets. I got out my sets and looked them over. I bought all of these sets in the 1970s and '80s, nothing later. I made the following observations:

My 1955 flat pack set envelope opens at the top, but my 1956 set opens at the side. I have seen them come both ways. Also I have seen 1955 sets with and without the foil mint disk in the flat pack. The sets without it have an empty pocket.

My 1958 set has "P.C." printed on the envelope, and the date "1958" is rubber stamped in small blue letters. It was stamped crooked and away from the "PC."

I have a 1961 set in the original envelope where the buyer bought only one set. An address lebel was pasted over the front of the envelope and the envelope was sealed, of course. I believe that if you ordered multiple sets, the Proof set envelopes inside were not sealed.

Back in the 1960s there were stupid (in my opinion) invester/speculator types who made a big deal out of never opened sealed envelope Proof sets. These guys actually thought the sets were better if they were sealed, and they never looked at them. I have read that crooks caught on to this. They steamed opened the envelopes or took out the coins if they were not sealed and replaced them with sheets of zinc so that the sealed envelope weighed the same.

I've heard that they did the same thing with sealed box sets. They took out the coins, replaced them with nuts and bolts that weighed the same and resealed the boxes. There are even reproductions of the 1950 to mid 1955 Proof set boxes. I have one of those.

The bottom line is I don't think that you really have a problem with counerfeit Proof set envelopes. It's not somthing I have seen in my time as a collector.

 

From 1960 to 1964 we used to buy 2 per year from the mint.........I believe that was the limit. Both envelopes were inside either another envelope or box. The proof set envelopes in each case were unsealed. I still have one of each. My dad has the other half.

 

I remember that you could order 100 or 200 sets, I forget which. The limit came in 1968 when the limit was at 5 or 10, I forget which.

Back in the old days, Proof sets came out slowly. Those who got them first could sell them to dealers for a quick profit. Now the mint ships them quickly as soon as you order them.

 

Eight year old thread........you guys picked right up on that, correct?