What is natural toning?????????????????????

That's total BS. All of it looks natural to me, and apparently to everyone else here too. I say either go to another TPG for them or just crack them and forget it, unless the grade review applies to this too. If you resubmit these to any TPG, add a not that they are from an original roll.

 

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40 coin submissions presents are fairly large submission fee. I would fight this one for sure. The first girl you talked to may not have the power to do anything about it; ask to talk to her manager. Then that person's manager, etc until you've got it resolved.

 

Very nice coins anyway....

 

Yeah, I'd escalate... just keep escalating even if you have to get up to the Executives. If they came from original rolls... well, the toning looks natural.

 

Yes, everyone was tagged as AT. I still thought we pay them to grade each coin on its own merit. I think NGC is showing the true colors and that is all they care about is taking our money not grading coins.

 

You made a mistake by trying to discuss the issue of NT vs. AT with a CS Rep. While I think that NGC's customer service is top notch, I would not expect them to have the technical training to answer questions like this. You should have asked to speak to one of the graders who reviewed your coins.

The 2nd and 3rd coins you posted do look suspect to me. The problem you have when submitting a large group like this where some of them may be suspect, is that the graders have a tendency to be a bit skeptical about all of them. Just because the coins were in a bank roll doesn't mean they haven't been doctored in any way.

What always bugs me about situations like this is that submitters, like yourself, post complaints on a forum such as this where it does nothing to resolve the situation. You should be discussing it with the people at NGC who are in a position to answer your concerns. What I suggest is that you send either an e-mail or PM to Scott Schechter, VP OPS, and ask for his help.

Chris

 

I'm reminded of the story about the emperor. Duh, the TPG's aren't wearing any clothes. Just how much does their "expertise" add to the value? From what I'm seeing lately, I'm thinking their game may not be a good long term investment.

 

And this would lead me to ask what exactly are they being paid for? If your doctor sees 40 people a day, should you expect him to misdiagnose your hernia? Give me a break. The TPG's are adding 50% or more to the value of a lot of coins - and this is the BS one should expect?

 

That isn't a very good analogy. Did all 40 people have a hernia?

I don't know how many coins you've submitted to NGC, or any other grading service for that matter, but I've submitted a couple thousand, and I've only had two minor problems. In both instances, they were quickly resolved by discussing them with the RIGHT people.

Do you really think that the top grading services are out to cheat the customers just to get more money from them? Get real!

Chris

 

No,no, I don't think the grading services are out to cheat anyone - I think they are serving a very valuable service to dealers that allow them to get more than the intrinsic value of the coins from customers who believe that value will be stable because the TPG says the coin is special. It's an old game. It works - for a time. I wouldn't invest in it myself, but clearly a lot of people do. As one who submits coins to TPG's it doesn't surprise me that you've been generally pleased with the results.

As one who does not, but who buys coins that I study carefully, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that in the lower priced market (maybe under $300 or $500) that I will have to pay considerably more for a similar coin that's been slabbed than one that hasn't. I can certainly see the value to the collector when it comes to higher end stuff, but in the more plebian market, it's a rip off for the consumer - not enough increase in actual intrinsic value - and too much variation and subjectivity in the process. A terrific service for the dealer who can double his or her money by submitting coins for grading though - so thus, I'm pretty sure the emperor is naked - unless maybe I'm not so pure of heart as I thought - LOL.

 

Just because you prefer to collect raw coins is no reason for you to put down the grading services. Maybe that's all you can afford, but it's obvious you don't know too much about the grading services. You also seem to have a dislike for dealers, and apparently you don't know too much about them either. Most dealers probably have 10x, 50x, maybe 100x more raw coins in their inventory than certified coins. I must assume that you buy your raw coins from venues like eBay. What a joke! You're more likely to get ripped off in places like that than you would buying from a dealer.

Intrinsic value? Plebeian market? (you spelled it wrong) What a load of horsehockey!

Chris

 

Pardon my spelling. I'm addicted to spell-checkers.

I'm not trying to put down grading services - it's the over-use of them and resulting doubled ++ prices that that I find off-putting. And I don't dislike or have anything against dealers, they make the world go round. You can put a bow on a Mercedes and a Ford and it won't change what they are - but it might help you sell them - same is true of the plastic slabs. A dealer who finds a way to increase the market value of his product through a packaging process isn't really ripping anyone off - (rip-off - your words, not mine). I think you read more hostility into my post than I intended. I've bought many a piece from dealers as well as ebay - I actually like supporting dealers, but have to say that investment-wise, I've done much better on ebay than I ever have with a dealer. I have NEVER - been able to get my money back, let alone profit, from anything I've ever bought from a dealer of any kind (musical instruments, antiques, or coins) unless I held the item for a long, long, time - Maybe that's my fault? Poor choice of dealers? Bad taste? I don't know - but I've made even exchanges and even some profits on many items I bought and sold on ebay. Live and let live, man.

 

Live and let live? Why? Am I supposed to let you off the hook for making ridiculous comments which can mislead others? Nothing you have said on this subject is even close to being factual. It is just your own unsubstantiated opinion in your little corner of the world. I take back what I said about your comments being horsehockey. They are a full truckload of horsehockey.

Chris

 

I think you are being a little harsh Chris. You have your own bit of opinion here too:

Maybe that's all you can afford, but it's obvious you don't know too much about the grading services

Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t180725-3/#ixzz1PFgvHT00

I don't buy TPG graded coins, and have collected coins for 30 years, and spend about 10k a year on coins. Is it because I cannot "afford" them also? I simply do not like chasing "grade rarities" and rely on my own expertise for authentication and grading most of the time. If I am unsure I stay away from the issue. For full disclosure, TPG is one of the main issues that drove me away from US coins. I don't want to collect plastic, and TPG ups the costs and drive many collectors to only worry about the plastic, kind of like beanie babies.

He also has a point about most people not profiting on dealer purchases, because in collectible markets there are large swings between buying retail and selling wholesale. I agree with him, and its why "investing" in coins is really an oversell by the dealers to drum up more sales to me.

The problem I have with the OP post is in my experience an original roll usually only had colored coins on the ends and on the rims. Usually no toning is present on the inner coins, except for the rims. If these were really bank rolls, I would expect at least 80% to be blast white. What happened was the outside of the rolls toned, protecting the silver of the inner coins. Maybe that is why NGC thought AT. Not saying the OP did anything wrong, but I have bought at least 100 original rolls of silver coins, some as old as the 40's. I have never seen color on the inner coins if they were put away as BU coins.

Chris

 

I did talk to NGC for over twenty minutes on the phone and got nowhere They would not let me talk to the grader. all they said is that I could resubmit the coins for a regrade.

 

The point of this is WHAT IS ARTIFICIAL TONING! I have sent coins in before that were sent back as AT. I would crack them out and send them back in and 90% of the time they came back as original. This was with Morgans. I talked to two major dealers this week who are friends of mine and they said that the toning standards seem to be different for different types of coins. One dealer that I talk with at Central States Coin Show told me he buys all the AT holder coins he can and sends them in to be graded (cracked out of the AT holders) and over 75% come back as original making him a good profit. Coins such as Three cent silvers can be album toned and this is not AT. My point is the Grading services need to have one standard for ALL coins as to what is artificial toning. The only one who seem lose in this whole deal is the collector. I have never had a problem with NGC or PCGS service time and I think they do a service for the novice collector. But they need a standard for what is artificial toning and what is not and let the rest of us know what it is. This is the last time I will be on coin talk for a while as I am going Small mouth fishing with my son in northern Wisconsin.

 

This just shows what I have been saying for a few months now... They are REALLY getting harsh on color. Unless it's textbook they are murdering it. They are doing this with copper as well. I think they are getting tired of buying back coins that are AT'ed and look great when they go in and do get graded... but keep toning in the holders to the point where they are buying them back later. My advice right now is to just hang on to your coins with color.

 

The problem is that the only difference is "opinion". There is no standard possible, as the chemical toning reactions are the same, whether intended and induced by a person (AT), or whether it is produced with no intent or action by a person (NT). The TPG knows well that coins are resubmitted and can received different opinions from the same TPG,as they have seen photos on the internet showing such as have I. Those that offer guarantees have become more hard nosed about toning. I have sent in coins I have had for decades , that have been similarly labeled. No matter how you cut it, or the number of "experts" that say they can tell the difference between AT and NT, it is just Opinion.

Jim
​

 

Chris, in no way was I implying that everyone who collects raw coins can't afford anything more than that. What I was trying to do was elicit more information about his collecting habits. I know a lot of veteran collectors who will purchase slabbed coins and crack them out for their sets because they prefer them raw, but it's much safer for them to buy certified coins, sight-unseen, from a dealer or on eBay and avoid (some of) the risk that the photos of a coin have been manipulated in some way.

He said that he has nothing against the grading services, but that isn't what he said. He said he has nothing against the dealers, but that isn't what he said either. It irritates me that someone who has had no experience dealing with the grading services can make blanket statements like he did, and his comment about dealers submitting coins just so they can double their prices is more hogwash. What concerns me the most is that his comments can be read by beginners and give them the impression that they shouldn't trust the grading services or the dealers.

What you said about end-roll toning hit the mark. Very rarely do you find any of the inner coins toned, IF THAT IS HOW THEY TONED IN THE FIRST PLACE. The mere fact that they were in a roll is meaningless because no one knows who put them in it or what may have been done to them before that. If the OP followed protocol, they were in flips anyway when they were submitted. We only saw three examples from his submission, and we have no way of knowing what the others look like, but if the graders who reviewed them found many that were suspect, it's only natural that it would make all of the others suspect. That was the point I was trying to make when I got the ridiculous comment about a misdiagnosed hernia.

Let me ask you this, Chris, if I didn't challenge him about his statements, what other person here would have? It seems that everyone was just going with the flow and agreeing with what had been said. Maybe they just didn't want to rock the boat, I don't know, but at who's expense............the beginners, naturally!

No, Chris, with all due respect for the collectors who prefer to collect raw coins, I stand behind my comments.

Chris, too!

 

I've never had to discuss anything with the graders, but I know others who actually have had discussions with them over the phone. It was just one possibility. What you should do is send a PM or e-mail to Scott Schechter to discuss your grievances. Scott is always open to working with the customers.

Enjoy the fishing trip!

Chris