Follow-up: that fake 1920-S Walker from eBay

From everything I can determine through countless searches, I believe that to be correct.

 

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Stamp COPY on the reverse in the field, then send it back to him COD

 

Perhaps if this item ended in a Secret Service Evidence room, he could reclaim it there.

 

Simple....ignore completely and be done with him.

And, either destroy the coin or stamp it COPY so no other collector can ever get burned again.

 

The coin should be sent back to the seller, as is.
It is his property.

 

Really? I'm (obviously) no lawyer, but when the item was sold with misrepresentation and apparent intent to defraud, doesn't that in any way compromise his claim? You can't reclaim stolen property after you've sold it, even if you repay the money you got for it.

If eBay had told me to send it back, I would've grumbled, but I would've done so, without defacing it. If the guy had said "I'm sorry, return it and I'll refund your money", I would've done so, again without defacing it. He didn't; he told me to take it up with eBay. I did, eBay refunded my money, and told me I didn't need to do anything else.



That bit about how "the seller has issued a full refund" is a bit euphemistic. His eBay account was yanked, I imagine his PayPal account was frozen, and if it didn't have a sufficient balance, they probably went after his bank account or CC account for the remainder. Note that, in general, eBay does require you to traceably return SNAD merchandise, and won't issue a refund until they receive proof of delivery. In this case, they did not impose that requirement.

Now, I don't turn to eBay as the final authority on my legal or ethical obligations, but when I'm dealing through eBay, I'm very careful to play by their rules. By their rules, I apparently owe this guy nothing.

He's proven that he's willing to act unethically; I'd prefer not to turn him into a stalker. But I also don't feel that I owe him a return, and I'm not sure it improves my ethical standing if I do return the thing.

 

I fully agree Jeff,


Case was closed by ebay and paypal. No need to contact him back

 

quote him a Buy it Now price

 

I also fully agree... I'm not sure what Larry is thinking about in this particular case. Do NOT return the coin under any circumstances.

 

So, after a little more research, here's what I plan to do.

I'm going to ignore this first email. If he sends another, I'll reply, explaining that eBay has stated I don't owe him a return.

If he persists, and especially if he tries to get nasty, I'll explain what I'm willing to do for him:

"As I've already explained, eBay says that I don't need to do anything else. If you insist, though, I will: I'll file a Mail Fraud complaint with the U.S. Postal Inspection Service, and I'll call up my local field office of the Secret Service, which is the legal entity charged with investigating counterfeit coins and currency. I'm not especially eager to do so; I hate paperwork, and I already have my money back. But I also don't like being pestered by people who've tried to defraud me, and since I can't seem to convince you where we stand legally, I'm hoping that they'll have better luck."

I'm thinking that should be direct enough to satisfy anyone, and more importantly, it's something I'm actually willing to follow through on.

 

I wouldn't reply at all. Don't open that can of worms.
I'd forward all correspondence to Ebay. Let them handle it.
Do hang onto the coin, and keep it in the condition it was delivered in, just in case somewhere down the line you are legally forced to return it.

 

Since when is eBay and PayPal the final judge of moral and ethical business exchange? You guys are hilarious! They did everything in their power to protect the buyer (which I agree that they always should), but that doesn't mean in anyway that there is not anything else that you could do on your end to make the deal even. I won a coin from Latvia once and the dealer claimed they shipped it and three weeks later I opened a claim, so the dealer asked me if I wanted my money or another of the same coin and I asked for another of the same coin, because I wanted it for my collection, he claimed he would send another. Weeks passed and no coin came in so I let the claim run its course and was finally given a full refund, but it took weeks longer to end the case because of international shipping. The day they paid me my money, one of the coins showed in the mail later that after noon. eBay and PayPal were not going to force me to do anymore business with the seller, but I went right on after work and sent him his payment back again, explaining that one of the coins arrived. Laughing, I said to my wife, for karma sake what will I do if the original coin arrives next... Luckily it never did..(but I had already decided I would have paid an equal price if it arrived)... Moral of the story is that eBay and PayPal do not Guarantee a fair outcome to both parties every time, and I agree that if issued a refund you should return said item. If you really felt ownership of said item is unethical than you would have already submitted it to the feds or destroyed it.

 

Comparing apples to oranges there.
He was defrauded via mail and sent a counterfiet coin (not a replica, because that would require legally acceptable markings).
The seller did it with full knowledge. I went back though his FB, and he was buying unmarked 'replicas' from auctions marked as 'replica' for .99c each. Scumbag, and I would have no moral dilemma with sc###ing him and helping my hobby by taking a counterfiet out of the market.

 

You took one line out of my post and ignored the rest.
First off, you cannot question my morals. I have been faced with similar situations to the scenario you painted, and have always done what is right. There you have an apples to apples comparison of my morals to yours. In this situation, it is not morals, it is common sense that you don't give a murderer back his gun. (Overstated to cut to the chase)

 

Lots of ways to look at this. From the sellers email, it sounds like the guy really wants his coin back. He has a name, address, email address, ebay user name and maybe a phone number if he pulled it before he got booted.
Is he a nutcase? Will he try to come back at you in some way? I don't know. It's a risk.

It's interesting that someone with that much positive feedback would get caught up in this. Maybe a jacked account. Could be that the seller was selling the fakes for someone else and was too stupid to know what he was selling. It's possible the seller wants the coins back to stick them up the backside of who he got them from. With ebay, we will never know.

Lots of questions but one thing is for sure. He was selling fakes and got caught. No way to get out of that hole but it's still his property. Hope this works out but I'll bet the seller is not finished with this.

 

I'm just saying that maybe this isn't the place to gloat that you are going to retaliate against a fraudulent scam-mer, by being a thief. LOL

p.s. I wish I were in Pensacola right now.

and I know you are just going to come back with he is an apple and your an orange, but I am just saying that you guys need to stop acting fruity!!! The both of you!

 

Yes, yes. I've done the same thing as well (made the seller whole after they gave a refund for something that was delayed in the mail). I've also been more than generous in other situations where items I received were not as described.

As ratio411 pointed out, though, there's a BIG difference (IMO) in this case, where the seller defrauded me, was continuing to defraud others, and made no attempt to do the right thing himself. I've already done unto him as I would have him do unto me, at great length (explaining the situation, asking politely for a refund, remaining calm and civil). In a sense, I still am; if I ever misbehave as badly as this guy has, I hope my victims will vigorously slap some sense into me.

I also need to respond to your last comment:

Please read carefully over my previous posts, in this thread and the previous one, and point out to me where I said that ownership of such an item is "unethical". Selling it as a genuine coin is blatantly unethical. Selling it as a replica is arguably unethical, and perhaps illegal as well, since it isn't stamped "copy". Keeping it? Nope, I don't see any problem -- unless, by giving it up, I can help to stop others from being defrauded. For now, it seems I'm much more likely to accomplish that by keeping it.

 

Based on the sellers history on ebay, I will guess he will be back on in about 30 days.

 

No, it is no longer his property. It is like selling dope and not getting paid. There is not a court in the nation that would order the dope buyer to return it to the seller. The suers have to "have clean hands" to proceed against anyone else. This was an illegal transaction. Without any legal ramifications, it ended when he sent you a counterfeit coin. Period. Morally, it is up to the op, but I would in no way return it to him unless he pays for the shipping and I marked it as required by law.