Intentional Album Toning

The problem is with the TPG's who chose not to designate coins with colorful oxidation as either damaged or altered surfaces after all they do RD RB BR why not AS?

Doug, That was the best comprehensive post I have seen you write on this subject.

 

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A lot of your other posts have gotten hung up/clouded with "intent". Or thats how I read them, To me, intentions of previous owners just doesn't/can't/shouldn't factor in.

 

Doug , we'll have to agree to disagree . I can't comprehend rewarding so called coin doctors that change a coin from plain to rainbow in a matter of hours so they can charge outrages sums of money . I agree intent has a lot to do with it . But by condoning it by saying it doesn't matter makes things worse . It's going to take rare beautifully toned coins into common coins . I admit I can't tell the difference on a lot of AT coins . So I will not buy one .
Rusty

 

In my opinion, we should make a new name for NT and AT: LTT (long term toning) and STT (short term toning)

NT requires a long time of chemical reactions and can't really be controlled, making it more desirable. AT is quick but it CAN be controlled

 

Nope. LTT can still be controlled -- probably more easily, in fact, than STT. But both can be intentional or unintentional, controlled or uncontrolled.

Most importantly, though, if the end result is the same, there's no way to examine a coin and reliably determine which it is. And so we're right back where we started.

 

I think that the best debate that I have ever seen on this topic exists in a recent thread on this forum. The debate was between Lehigh96 and GDJMSP. Lehigh96 basically stated that coin albums are an accepted method of storage with predictable toning patterns that can be deemed market acceptable. I agree with his opinion. Here is the quote from that thread:



"I did not claim that the proof set was improperly stored or AT. I stated that improper storage could explain why the TPG found the toning of that Proof set coin questionable. Silver Dollars were stored in canvas bags as a routine procedure of commerce in the United States. For those coins that spent decades in those bags, the coins touching the canvas often developed dramatic rainbow toning. The storage method is known to everyone, and the patterns and color schemes are identifiable. Coins have been stored in coin albums as an accepted method of storage since the first coin album was produced. Again, the storage method is known to everyone, and the patterns and color schemes are identifiable.

As you have pointed out, coin doctors are capable of reproducing both bag toning and album toning Therefore, we can't declare these coins that exhibit identifiable toning patterns NT. What the TPG's and I do is declare them to have "market acceptable" toning. Based on the look of the coin that exhibits identifiable color schemes and toning patterns, the TPG's decide that the toning is most likely the result of an accepted storage method and is therefore most likely NT. In the case of your proof set coin example, my guess is that it did not display a color scheme and toning pattern that the TPG's recognized to be the result of a proper storage method and deemed the coin a problem coin. Would it make you happy if they stopped calling coins AT and started using the terminology "improper storage". I know how sensitive you are about the proper use of terminology.

You see Doug, there are a percentage of coins that we have such a high confidence level about the origin of the toning that we simply label them NT or AT. It is technically incorrect to do so since we don't know 100% that they are NT or AT, but that really only bothers you. For everything in between what we label as NT and AT, we make a decision about the market acceptability of the toning based on known patterns and color schemes that are created from accepted storage methods as well as accepted indicators of NT & AT.

FWIW, I agree with you about intent. But nobody can prove intent, therefore it can't be used as the criteria to evaluate toning, no matter how much you want it to."

Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/showthread.php?t=152572&page=7#ixzz1J4pTxjG9



I urge everyone to read that thread from beginning to end, it really is quite educational. Lehigh96's toning scale is superb!

Mark

 

anyone want some state quarters, naturally toned golden in a Dansco album?

Nah, I kid. Was a bit upset that they toned in the album. grrr!

 

naaaaa, it's a big bore between 2 people with differing opinions saying the same thing over and over 15 different ways



these are obviously artificially toned


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290553519907&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123#ht_2830wt_998

 

Kind of hard to decide....I can see both sides....it is Natural because the album is doing it...but also the album was made that way.

 

I dont think placing them in the book is AT... I placed some half dollars in a album in 1987 and around age 10 and left them at my moms house ....
25 yrs later just opened them up about 6 months ago my mom found them in a drawer while cleaning...

some were toned some where not.... I think the process was " natural " the books were left untouched with no " intent " to tone....

It was a " natural occurance " no chemicals or heat added... I did not alter the surface it altered iself...
BUT some toned some did not....

 

Natural. People purposely put coins in albums simply for display and storage as well. Toning is just a side effect. Since a person is not actively doing something to tone the coin then it's not artificial. So someome puts it in an album for the purpose of toning, okay, but it's going to take a long time and it would most likely happen even if that wasn't their intent. If this would be called AT then someone should notify the TPGs and make sure they body bag any coin that comes from an album.

 

The only "but" to the situation to me would be: Are you assuming they just placed them in the albums and stored them? Or did someone do something else to them while in the albums?

Old albums have been used for years for "accelerated toning". Same with manilla envelopes, depends on what kind of toning you were going for.

It really does simply get back to Doug's declaration that INTENT is really the only divider in this debate. Anything that occurs naturally can be accelerated to a degree, in that same way.

 

That makes the OP's question pointless though because then it is not only the album that is toning the coin.

 

Thanks Doug, that was my point. I was not saying spray chemicals on or anything, I have just seen people "speed up" toning in albums or manila envelopes using nothing more than humidity, heat, and light, (I am intentionally avoiding specifics). What would have taken 5 years is done in less than a month. Is that AT? A coin with good surfaces, (especially silver), reacts quite quickly, and in a month you can make very nice, NT looking coins. All I can say is that I could not tell the difference from them and coins I bought that were stored in albums for 30 years. Same toning to my eyes.