Why did NGC bag the coin as AT?

+1

Everyone here even though they have different vantage points are correct. We all take our level of knowledge and try to over generalize to an extent. I hope Shane and Paul continue to post about toned coins here, as I have learned a lot of the current market from their posts.

Yeah, btw what IS wrong with green? I hope Coinman just meant gree on silver, since hard green patinas on ancient coins can be a thing of beauty.....

 

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Perhaps you need to visit your eye doctor.

I absolutely did not avoid answering your question. The following sentence is a quote directly from me in post #83

I did not claim that the proof set was improperly stored or AT. I stated that improper storage could explain why the TPG found the toning of that Proof set coin questionable. Silver Dollars were stored in canvas bags as a routine procedure of commerce in the United States. For those coins that spent decades in those bags, the coins touching the canvas often developed dramatic rainbow toning. The storage method is known to everyone, and the patterns and color schemes are identifiable. Coins have been stored in coin albums as an accepted method of storage since the first coin album was produced. Again, the storage method is known to everyone, and the patterns and color schemes are identifiable.

As you have pointed out, coin doctors are capable of reproducing both bag toning and album toning Therefore, we can't declare these coins that exhibit identifiable toning patterns NT. What the TPG's and I do is declare them to have "market acceptable" toning. Based on the look of the coin that exhibits identifiable color schemes and toning patterns, the TPG's decide that the toning is most likely the result of an accepted storage method and is therefore most likely NT. In the case of your proof set coin example, my guess is that it did not display a color scheme and toning pattern that the TPG's recognized to be the result of a proper storage method and deemed the coin a problem coin. Would it make you happy if they stopped calling coins AT and started using the terminology "improper storage". I know how sensitive you are about the proper use of terminology.

You see Doug, there are a percentage of coins that we have such a high confidence level about the origin of the toning that we simply label them NT or AT. It is technically incorrect to do so since we don't know 100% that they are NT or AT, but that really only bothers you. For everything in between what we label as NT and AT, we make a decision about the market acceptability of the toning based on known patterns and color schemes that are created from accepted storage methods as well as accepted indicators of NT & AT.

FWIW, I agree with you about intent. But nobody can prove intent, therefore it can't be used as the criteria to evaluate toning, no matter how much you want it to.

 

I don't see what the issue with AT coins is actually. If you think the coin looks good and it's in your price range...buy it.

 

Nice debate, Gentlemen! Thank you for the thread!
Steve

 

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This whole thread (so far), has probably been one of the most interesting, stimulating, funny, informative, eye-opening (and oft times "cringe worthy"), topic of discussion that's been a downright pleasure to read......and I have seriously learned quite a bit.

I don't collect toned coins "on purpose", but I do have some......
The only reason I have them is because I liked the way they looked... and for all intents and purposes, they were free (some I got in rolls, and some of them with my change for a purchase).

Toned coins, (whether Artificially Toned or Naturally Toned) seems to be quite a touchy subject, and I can understand why........

No one can tell the difference between a NT'd coin, and an AT'd coin (providing it doesn't look like it's been rattle canned), and I get that.

Certain individuals seem to place a premium on those toned coins simply because they are what they are....toned...........Ok, 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder', (or the beerholder, or the coin holder (whatever).....Ok, I get that too (some of them ARE stunning).

Certain individuals seem to be "in a quandry", (ok, they seem to be pizzed off ) because a premium has been put on an item that is questionable in and of itself....for reasons that can neither be proven nor disproven.......(that sounds reasonable.... I definately wouldn't buy what someone claimed to be a Picasso if it wasn't signed by Picasso and there was no provenance attesting to the artist).


Certainly there are TPG'ers who are 'gun shy' about slabbing toned coins.....(fool me once, shame on you...fool me a crapload of times/make me look bad/cost me money, then shame on me, etc).



I'm not surprised at how passionate some individuals are on this subject.....

If someone was trying to prove to me that something that I valued had NO Value, I'd be pretty mad.......(and considering all the invested time/money/emotions, etc I'd try to REALLY prove my point).

If someone was trying to prove to me that something had value (above and beyond it's base), and I could clearly see the potential for that value to be not only hypothetical, but fraudulent as well, I'd be pretty mad too.......and I'd try and prove my point......("can't they see it for what it is?").




And if someone took a poll of who was "right" and who was "wrong" in regards to this subject, there would be NO winner.......just an opinion.
(and sometimes opinions are like cloacal vents....everybody has one, and even then it generally stinks).

So, at the end of the day........I think this could certainly be a case of "why don't we just agree to disagree?"........
(and if degrades into fisticuffs, who's gonna hold the bets?....'cuz my money would be on the old guy in the hat....I'm just sayin).


(and whoever came up with.... "If the grade don't fit, you must re-submit!" .....is a freakin genius....THAT was funny.)


I need to get a little sleep....we're gonna have a memorial for Bill Xxxxxx (one of our 976-Tuna Pro-Staffers)..we'll be at Pierpoint Landing in Long Beach (next to the Long Beach Aquarium), where we will all get on the sportfishing vessel "Toronado", head out into Santa Monica Bay, and take Bill for his last boat ride.
R.I.P. Bill.

 

EyeEatWheaties, your coin toner sounds terrific! What is the cost of a bottle? I think I just might try it out for the fun of it!

 

Here's talking about the garage brew crap on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Tone-A-Coin-Coi...322?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f866d19a

 

no wonder they won't slab our coins!

 

Where are the " WiseGuys " when I need one.

 

Just got this coin back from PCGS and they MS65'ed it. I'll post some pics as I get some time to take them.

 

Just a couple of quick shots.

 

Ha! Glad to see a happy ending!

 

All you have to do as part of a submission is also include a link to a thread about the coin being submitted like this one!

In other words post pics of the coin in a thread get others to comment positively about the toning and bam!

Of course I don't know this for a fact..

 

I think somepeople get carried away when they tone,,, If you throw a penny on a plate and put in the over for a hour t 450 it will come out purple with some ainbow shades...

I think the case with silver is the same... the grading companies know " what is a the natural spectrum " of toning...

There is also some stuff that jewlery people rub on silver to give it a rainbow effect i cant think of what its called just right now
mother of pearl or something like that

 

NGC is ultra paranoid, I'm glad to see PCGS got it right.

 

couldnt toning AT or NT be considered oxidative/elemental damage ? making some companies refuse to grade it....

If you see a coin that been in thegroung and dug up ? they get graded elemental damage...
If a coin was exposed to heat/oxygen/paper what ever that cuased it to tone... couldnt that be damage to a degree?