Paper Money: Guess the Grade

Okay guys, here's something to help illustrate some things about this note before we get to the last stage and reveal the grade:



The magenta lines are various folds or where the strongest folds concentrated. I held the note to a bright light to expose many lines you cannot see in the seller pics nor the scan.

The yellow disc on the edge marks a 0.125" (1/8" inch) tear on the margin.

The yellow circle denotes two red ink spots on the reverse.

Keep the comments coming if you think of anything else to point out for the new paper collectors to "see" and be aware of. :thumb:

 

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From the PMG website;

20 Very Fine Moderate circulation with numerous folds, mild soiling but no serious detractions. A solid note but may have a minor defect.

I saw a similar thread at a different forum months ago, and the note looked AU, with guessing anywhere from XF45 to AU58, and it ended up being 64 without the *PQ designation. Just goes to show you that without note in hand, it's VERY HARD to get it right. Great excersise Krispy.

 

In the future i think it would be helpful to know in advance which TPG graded the note
As there grading criteria is slightly different especially when it comes to Paper quality

 

Rusty, I considered mentioning which TPG graded the note, but I also hoped that by not indicating that from the start, that we might get more varied responses and avoid the thread breaking out into a discussion about why this or that TPG grades as they do given a certain Series or in a range of conditions. I let everyone know it was indeed graded by one of the two TPGs: PMG Notes or PCGS Currency and provided these links in the first post so everyone had access to their grading scales. This way even new collectors could wager a guess if they wanted to play along. I hope that after the grade on the holder and the TPG is revealed that any thoughts you guys have about how the note was graded can be added to the thread, again for the benefit of the new collectors. Thanks.

 

Can you give us a hint of when you might post the grade of this note??

 

Nice thread Krispy, this is an interesting read.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is the corners of the note. I find it useful to look at corners, especially on poorly scanned "ebay notes", as they often give away the wear and tear of a note that isn't hidden by contrast and brightness adjustments that are often made. Even on the first scan you posted, one can see four rounded corners, clearly a sign that the note is not going to magically be "crisp, with nice embossing".

Dave

 

Grade revealed: PCGS VF30 PPQ

I'd like to thank everyone who has commented so far and to let those who have given us an idea of the grade know that I am very much in agreement with your assessments of this note. In fact, it was my suspicion about the grade on the holder from what I was seeing of the note within, even showing through the terrible listing pictures, that piqued my curiosity about this note. Further, I wanted to share this piece with you to get your feedback, hoping that in the process we might shed light on the topic of grading for newer paper money collectors.


F-2309 Series of 1934-A $10 Silver Certificate, Yellow Seal
SN: A 99808300 A

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The uncropped images from the listing showing the holder/grade:

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The uncropped images of my scan showing the holder/grade:







Collected from previous posts:

From the listing pics:
mpcusa: VF-25
camplov2: 20/25, probably going with 25.
SteveInTampa: 20 , without any *PQ designation
USS656: 25
Mark14: 25


From my scan:
camlov2: staying with 25.
USS656: sticking with 25
mpcusa: on the VF-25 tract
SteveInTampa: stay with my VF20

 

I'm a little surpised, but not floored. I've seen this before with older currency, and I sometimes think that this note is being compared/graded to all of the Fr.2309's that have come before it. I don't believe that a 2006 $1 Federal Reserve note in this condition would get this grade.
Great excersize Krispy, and thanks for brining this to light.

 

I agree Steve! I had a suspicion that it would go a little higher when I saw the paper condition and hinted as much. If a 2006 was submitted in this condition, I would bet it would have done no better than 20. You have to pay attention to the note ~ not the plastic it's in.

Thanks Kris!

 

Here,s a comparative of one of mine Series 471 $5 IN PCGS 30PPQ the front is really clean
The back however shows the hard middle fold, but there are no distracting marks such
As ink or rip,s our multiple folds, so i,am a bit surprised by the 30 grade more so
By the PPQ designation!

 

By PCGS' very definition given in their own grade scale, there is just no way the note should have left their hands as a 30 let alone capable of a PPQ. I could see enough in the listing images before buying the note to tell me it was less than a 30, but I just had to see this one in hand to believe it and confirm for myself that it was below 30. I think I could be persuaded to agree with the grade on the MPC note but never for the one I posted.

I was curious if the Series itself was given some sort of exception/considerations apart from other notes for the grade to be so high but really can't explain the TPGs reasoning void of it being a complete error in labeling.

 

There seem,s to be some contradiction there for sure! but you have to face reality no one
Or no TPG is perfect! there are bound to be mistakes made that,s just the way it is!

If you dont think so try walking on water

Here,s a Series 541 $10 IN PCGS VF25 though i think it,s just as good as the 471 $5 i posted
Earlier and think it,s better the Kris,s $10 note he posted

 

I agree, the MPC shown graded VF25 is much more a solid example representative of that grade and better than the one I posted. While I admit human error is something we must contend with, it seems hard to accept in such a case when it comes from a professional grading service, one with measures in place to double or even triple check the work of individual graders. Accuracy is the very crux of their industry, yet we find examples that seem to defy their best attempts. When so many of us easily formed a consensus that the note was in fact not representative of a VF 30 PPQ going by each of our own personal experience as well as comparing to the published grading standards by PCGS, it is harder to accept their error unless there are other factors such as exceptions for common notes, carelessness for low grade common notes, or something of that nature. I'm not upset or resistant to their services and assessment of the note, just baffled how such an obvious batch of problems got a higher grade attached. We may never know, but better images for an auction listing combined with the higher grade might well draw realized prices that are skewed from what even both experienced and less-experienced buyers might have parted with had the note been in a more accurately labeled holder. I still reserve the notion that an error in labeling the note when it was encapsulated could be the culprit.

 

Man, grading these notes is going to be harder than I thought, but I'm paying attention and starting to learn a few things from you guys. Earlier, I thought grading paper might be easier than assigning grades to coins, but maybe not. I'm curious to know from those who collect both, if you think one is harder than the other or if they just present a different set of challenges. Also, do you think the grading of notes is far too complex and should be simplified, or is there a good reason that it's as complex as it is. In my case, being new to this, it's all very confusing. I'm sure that after getting some experience though I'll find it less intimidating than I do now. A lot of things in life seem to work out that way. Again, I want to thank Chris for starting this thread, and to all of you experienced collectors who contributed to it. You're giving me a great education.

Bruce

 

I'll echo my previous post, that this has been an excellent thread, and to all the collectors reading/participating I would like to emphasis that this thread should help all of us enjoy our hobby regardless of our experience.

Great job Krispy

 

Well, then let's play another round, and I'll give it a twist -- Today, I mailed this note to PCGS Currency:



What PCGS Currency grade do you think it will be?

 

Understanding the over all scope of grading is not easy! maybe more realistic would be to
Take a grade for example taking a note that is VF-25 and then assigning a 1-5 making
It a strong or weak 25 just an idea

 

I,am in, If the note is gem crisp with no pin holes rips or tears, i would go 63PPQ the
Centering is terrible on the front left and lower boarders as well as the back sorry
To be a stick in the mud i probably ruined your day! the note is in great shape it
Just has the major centering issues

 

The pamphlet, PCGS Currency Grading Standards, indicates, "Grading currency is not as simple as it might appear. Grading involves aspects of both art and science."

 

Some things are just more evident then other,s especially when it comes to centering which
Is really the first thing you look at when evaluating any note