Let's see your Conder Tokens

Wow, yarm, that gilt token was on my list but you must have have the speedier horse. Nice pickup.
I have the silvered piece but not UNC. Your example is marvelous -- not surprising.

The collector or museum numbers on the copper piece don't bother me either; in fact, they look quite nicely applied in this case.

Congrats. : )

 

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I saw this token listed on another web site as being "RRR" rare. Is it really so rare?

 

Hi, Collector1966...

I'd need to know if it is a halfpenny, penny, or farthing token. I think it's probably a halfpenny.
Were you provided a D&H number?
Varieties are determined by what is on the edge, which I'd need to know to attribute the piece.
No camel token is rated RRR, but some varieties are rated RR; it depends on the exact variety.

 

If this is listed as a penny token - Somersetshire Bath #8 then yes, it is listed in Dalton and Hamer as an RRR token. However, the book is WRONG on this token. There are 2 edge varieties for the penny token (it is the same size as the half penny token, just double thickness). #8 has the edge ON DEMAND WE PROMISE TO PAY ONE PENNY . X and this token appears frequently enough to be no more than Scarce. The second edge (#8a) is a plain edge and this may well be an RRR variety as I have no appearances of this edge variety in my notes.

I have a #8 in my collection - bought when I believed the book rarity so I have noticed these when they appear on eBay or elsewhere. Mine is a nice EF that I bought off of ebay for $100 some years ago and certainly overpaid for it at the time and am likely still underwater on it.

 

It's regular halfpenny size and the edge reads "Payable by M. Lambe & Son"

 

The regular halfpenny token is Somersetshire Bath #50. It comes with 12 edges. The PAYABLE BY M. LAMBE & SON edge is #50 and is listed as Common - which it very much so is - this one approaches dead common.

 

A past issue of the Conder Token Collector's Club journal included these notations/corrections to Dalton & Hamer.

 

Here's my first a 29a , PAYABLE IN LONDON & LANCASTER

 

Conder Token issues rated Common probably had fewer than 5,000 examples struck.

Matthew Boulton's early efforts to strike coinage with steam power resulted in an average lifetime of 420 tokens per die pair. As failures in dies proceeded, deterioration accelerated until eventually a die shattered. I imagine both dies would be replaced at that time, but sometimes only one die would be replaced, I think.

A numismatist is a private detective with himself as the client. - Larry

Thanks, yarm and farthing, when I checked the penny page in D&H, page 227, I found a penciled note that I had added DH8 to the Scarce group, its rarity rating not listed specifically otherwise. Bill probably told me that on the phone. I've purchased a few of the Bath Camels from him -- DH8, 50 and 50c, each in UNC.

It's doubtful that we'll be seeing an example of the 8a variety.

I need a farthing. LOL

 

Here'an attempt to show die failure progression, using four Conder Tokens of the same design, though their edge varieties may differ.
These are all varieties of the Norfolk, Blofield DH6 die pairing.


I know some error collectors that could really use this technique to display a longer series of frames. This is a gif animation and gifs lose some saturation and contrast, but that's not my fault. These examples grade DH: 6 EF, 6 UNC, 6b UNC, 6 UNC.

 

Very nice token rzage! A good beginning token.

 

Great presentation and tokens Larry!

 

Like America, Britain was a melting pot, for races and religions, sects and dialects.

Notice on rzage's token, a very attractive example, its lettering... IOHN of GAUNT. I believe at that time, some names were undergoing transitions, and the name was sometimes pronounced and heard as John, or Ihon (Jon, Yon). Just my opinion. I don't believe it was simply a misspelling as sometimes stated.

 

It matters little if Conder issues are counterfeit, as long as they are listed in D&H. They bring roughly the same prices as normal issues.
And normal issues were unofficial, privately minted tokens.
Finding a counterfeit in high grade is more difficult, since they were readily accepted almost anywhere.

Ordinarily in numismatics, the term 'counterfeit' is used to designate an imitation of official coinage, not tokens, not exonumia.

Don't get me wrong, there are those, especially citizens of the British Empire, that will swear that Conder Tokens were coins. LOL
Others may tell you that they are not actually 'Conder Tokens.' LOL

 

It's a darn good attemt .
rzage

 

I'm partial to Conder pennies, even those with simple designs. D & H indicates this was likely produced by Halliday in the 1830's
(for collectors? to sneak into the Christ's Hospital lunchroom?)

 

In the original Roman alphabet, there was no J, and a lot of countries of the period simply used an "I" in place a "J" in the Latin name of their ruler. For example, "Joseph" would be written as "Iosephus". So writing "John" as "Iohn" could simply be following that tradition.

 

1797 Middlesex 1042 • Halfpenny Conder Token, circulated but photogenic

Thanks, Collector1966. That makes sense, so could be, as you say. : )

So they were probably pronouncing a J, but spelling the name IOHN. (Not saying Yon or Jon.)

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Here is a recent arrival, a circulated piece.

I bought it from a British seller who graded it VF, and I can see why when I observe its reverse. But the obverse is very nice and that's the side with the well-preserved stag.

This is Middlesex 1042, a halfpenny Conder Token. I'd say EF/VF.








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Larry, your Midd 1042 looks a lot nicer than Dr. Sriro's example!

Have we run out of Pidcock's? Judging by how difficult it is to buy
a nice one these days, I'd guess there's more to be found in board
member collections!