first spouse coins with red spots

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by spock1k, Jan 26, 2011.

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  1. spock1k

    spock1k King of Hearts


    100% all gold begins to tone immediately after the process of striking is complete it is just not as fast as silver. it is as common as silver coins.
     
    spock1k, Jan 31, 2011
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  3. spock1k

    spock1k King of Hearts

    i would like to see it.
     
    spock1k, Jan 31, 2011
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  4. spock1k

    spock1k King of Hearts

    although i wont say that the red spots have had a good effect on me my pf are still 70 thanks to ncs but it did help me come out of the cool aid effect. but is till blame you for not dragging me out sooner :D
     
    spock1k, Jan 31, 2011
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  5. spock1k

    spock1k King of Hearts

    your dear friend the only other expert on modern gold also has no idea, we think its something in the air that is not a traditional toner. IF GD told us what he knows about the gases and what they cause then we would be closer but that knowledge could also be used to AT coins so its a double edged sword
     
    spock1k, Jan 31, 2011
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  6. Info Sponge

    Info Sponge Junior Member

    Info Sponge, Jan 31, 2011
    #25 + Quote Reply
  7. spock1k

    spock1k King of Hearts

    thanks yes that was an excellent thread before it degenerated and as usual we started saying things to GD about refinement rather than the topic at hand but i quote from GD

    You know why I think they say that ? Because they don't have any other explanation that they are willing to accept. They know it tones, the evidence is undeniable. But they can't explain why it tones because they believe it should not. Well, as happens with so many things, personal beliefs tend to blind people to the truth that is right in front of their eyes and they simply can't see it.

    Truth requires complete objectivity and always keeping an open mind. And that is a lot harder to do than it is to say.

    Regarding the accuracy of the explanation that it is impurities that tone and not the gold itself - ask yourself, does that really make sense ? Take the two coins I posted pictures of, does it makes sense that 0.001% impurities is enough to cause the entire surface of that coin to tone ? It sure doesn't to me.

    So about the only acceptable explanation is that gold does tone.

    Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/showthread.php?t=126202&page=2#ixzz1CcKXb1ik

    now we are trying to go the next level to determine what precisely causes the red spots sulphur silver some gas moisture what exactly ?
     
    spock1k, Jan 31, 2011
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  8. yakpoo

    yakpoo Member

    Interesting...but not surprising since silver is very commonly found in gold ore.
     
    yakpoo, Jan 31, 2011
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  9. desertgem

    desertgem Senior Errer Collecktor Supporter

    Ah, Spock

    Do not assume that impurities ( other than gold) are evenly distributed in the melt before producing the planchet plate for punching. If that was so, all gold coins would be showing it rather than a few. So "clumps" of impurities could be produced in a few gold coins that would show the red color, with the rest of the coins from that batch evenly distributed. Gold is one of the few metals that show a distinctly different color, and that is because of certain quantum related electron levels ( one strong theory) and there is not a correct energy level difference that would produce a red color, so I go with the impurity theory. Nice to see you on again.

    Jim
     
    desertgem, Jan 31, 2011
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  10. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins

    Always love the Spock/GD exchange. :)

    Good to see you back Dr.
     
    green18, Jan 31, 2011
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  11. sunflower

    sunflower New Member

    Will nickel rust? I would think nickel coins would since they have so much copper. However, I do not recall coming across a rusty nickel. -- Thanks.
     
    sunflower, Jan 31, 2011
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  12. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    The quoted comment above was mine Jim, not Spock's. He was merely quoting me.

    So, if I understand your comments here correctly, you are suggesting that these coins with the red coloring, like the one I mentioned with the red coloring covering nearly the entire surface, you are suggesting that this coin is not .9999 pure. That somehow this one coin contains all or most of the impurities contained in a particular batch of coins.

    Small problem with that as I see it though. When gold is refined they do not start with 1.000 gold and add impurities to bring it to the desired fineness level. If they did I could possibly understand your scenario happening.

    What they do is start less than pure gold obtained from another refiner and then they continue to refine it. And with each step in the refining process more and more impurities are stripped away until they achieve a product with the desired fineness level. So there is no chance for a given portion of the melted metal to have a higher concentration of impurities than the rest of the batch.

    Sorry Jim, but your explanation just doesn't hold up. If it did, then some of these coins being sold as .9999 would not be .9999. Do you think the govts. of the world would risk such a thing happening ? If even a hint of coins being sold with less than specified fineness came out - nobody would ever buy that country's gold again.

    But let's take it a step farther, let's go back. 500 years ago, or longer, when other pure gold coins were being made. The person in charge of making those coins staked his very life on those coins being precisely the fineness they were supposed to be. And if those coins did not all, every single one, have the specified fineness either because of debasement or even accidental manufacture, then the person in charge of making those coins was executed.

    Now, do you really think people would take such risks as to have this coin here or that coin there turn out to be of a less than specified fineness ?

    And no, don't try and tell me that back then they did not have the technology to refine gold to modern levels of purity. They did. Even a thousand years ago they refine gold to any desired fineness they wished right down to 1/1000th of a percentage point. If they wanted .986 gold they could make it - exactly .986. If they wanted .930 gold they could make it, exactly .930.

    They had much more exacting standards back then than we do today.
     
    GDJMSP, Feb 1, 2011
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  13. desertgem

    desertgem Senior Errer Collecktor Supporter



    I don't disagree with you with most of the above, but I do disagree that a given portion ( coin amount) of the pour can't have more impurities than another. They certainly do not assay each ounce of mix. I am not sure of the quantity processed for each pour, but it must be in the hundreds or thousands of pounds to form the flat sheet for punching. There are tolerances certainly. but I don't believe that eliminates the possibility of clumping of impurities in the processing. I don't think any one country can process much better than another, so I do not believe it would affect the evaluation, after all who melts down gold coins to assay each one after minting ?
    Jim
    ​
     
    desertgem, Feb 1, 2011
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  14. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Nobody melts them all down. But everybody melts some of them from each striking for assay. Especially here in this country, it's the law. And if a single coin is found to be out of spec then the entire mintage is recalled and melted. But it's never happened.

    And I refuse to believe that at least one of these reduced fineness coins would not be found in all of the assays held over the years.
     
    GDJMSP, Feb 1, 2011
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  15. desertgem

    desertgem Senior Errer Collecktor Supporter

    Ok, I have looked and can't find the law quoted above. Yes, I have found the laws and methods for assaying a selection of certain melts, before coining, and laws/methods for "assaying" samples of coins after coining, but only for weight tolerances, not for gold/silver tolerances of each coin.

    I have also found the mint statement that only the AGE coins are "guaranteed" as to purity and tolerances.

    Jim :)
     
    desertgem, Feb 1, 2011
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  16. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    But Jim, if the purity of the gold is below spec in those melted coins, then the weight is going to be below spec. That is how they test the purity, by testing the weight.

    OK, but if you look a little harder you will find that statement came out before any .999 or .9999 coins ever existed. Or are you suggesting that the .999 and .9999 coins are not gauranteed to purity and tolerance ?


    I know what science says Jim, it says that pure gold cannot tone. But because of what I have seen with my own eyes over the course of my lifetime I disagree with science.

    Men have disagreed with science throughout recorded hsitory. And time and time again, science has been proven wrong.
     
    GDJMSP, Feb 1, 2011
    #35 + Quote Reply
  17. spock1k

    spock1k King of Hearts

    nice to see you Jim lend a hand will you identify the cause of the red spots
    glad to see you too

    no wonder we are popular eh GD :D

    yes i am not letting this thread die till the cat is out of the bag
     
    spock1k, Feb 1, 2011
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  18. desertgem

    desertgem Senior Errer Collecktor Supporter

    Meow!! Run Kitty Run! :)
     
    desertgem, Feb 1, 2011
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  19. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins

    And while your're at it, get Harvey out of there too.......
     
    green18, Feb 1, 2011
    #38 + Quote Reply
  20. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    Spock,

    Here's some background on why stainless steel resists rusting:

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-doesnt-stainless-stee

    That said, I've NEVER seen any stainless steel stand up to extended use in salt water (for instance in a boat). If you place anoxic salt water next to staineless (I don't care what type) it will rust over time. This is alluded to in the wikipedia entry below, and is consistent with my first hand experience on boats for most of my adult life:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stainless_steel (see Properties section).

    Hope this helps...Mike
     
    Leadfoot, Feb 2, 2011
    #39 + Quote Reply
  21. spock1k

    spock1k King of Hearts

    what u locked him up again?

    Uncle Jim focus the gas thats responsible for the red spots. any idea what it could be?

    brilliant Mike do the same thing for the gold spots then we can close this thread in peace
     
    spock1k, Feb 3, 2011
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