world coins

I'm surprised that more Americans don't take an interest in pre-1776 British coins:


:too-cool-for:


guy

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

You can see this effect in countries all over the world if you just look. The Danish silver Krones had mintages as low as 992,000 and have prices up to $55 in unc. The very first issue in aluminum bronze has a higher mintage and sells for $5000. That's nearly 100 times as much and the demand is probably much lower. The only conclusion is the silver coin is far more common. Even Krones minted as late as 1959 exceed the value of the silver issues. Even Krones with far higher mntages made as late as 1949 are worth more than the silver issues.

This isn't just in Denmark and East Germany but it's all over the world. People didn't save junk coins. Everyone has lots of silver coins but people didn't save the base metal coins and now most of them have been melted or lost.

Those which are scarcest tend to be higher denomination and from the 40's to '70's but they span the entire range right up through the 21st century. The tough ones tend to be cu/ ni and from countries with fairly vibrant economies. But they can be almost anything and even things like the old stainless Turkish coins are proving to be more difficult than I'd have thought. I was able to find some of these in mint sets so thought they were fairly common but thy aren't apparently. At least the Turks are bidding the prices up over $100 for some of these issues. These coins are fairly easy in VF or XF since they apparently weren't melted being only stainless steel but Uncs are scarce. They aren't going to get more common. I've been telling people for years not to expect all these to come ut of the woodwork like the older coins do when the price goes up because the moderns aren't in the woodwork. Moderns just weren't saved. And that is just as true in the US as it is in Mongolia or New Caledonia.

Everyone can look at the piles of junk that come into a coin shop and marvel that there's a market for all of it. But it takes a collectors to poke through the piles and figure out what isn't there. It takes a collector filling holes to show that any coin is rare.

 

A LOT of those coins are sold in bulk to places like Educational Coin Company. They will gladly sell you thousands, or tens of thousands, of French centimes coins, demonetized Brazilian centavos, English halfpennies, Italian 10 lire, Maltese cents, Turkey 50,000 lira, all in top condition.

http://www.educationalcoin.com/bulk...untry=all&Qstatus=C&med=ALL&svar=&SilverFlag=

Really, there will never be a shortage of these coins, just like there is still no shortage of 1964 US silver coins even after being subjected to melting pressures since 1969.

A coin minted in 1969 in Argentina or France or Botswana has no real connection to the moon landing, other than the date. An 1861-O half dollar, on the other hand, has tremendous historical significance to an American collector, in part because it could have been minted by either the Federal government or by the Confederacy and is thus a direct connection to a truly historic time and place. American collectors who have an understanding of the Civil War can especially appreciate that fact. However, a penny minted in 1861 in Great Britain would have in all likelihood have no special historical significance to an American collector, unless it can be tied to events that happened in the US.

How many American collectors would want to pay $1300 for an aluminum East German coin? I would bet that only a small handful would do that, and then, only collectors with virtually unlimited financial means. If I had one, I would gladly sell it for $1300. For a few dollars more, I would much rather have a $20 gold piece. Or better yet, two $10 Indians that I can often buy here in Japan for the melt price. As for the Chinese 1955 aluminum coin you are referring to (I assume you mean the 1 chiao piece), more than a half billion of those coins were minted. I have found several in grab bags of foreign coins. They are not rare.

But silver is NOT a base metal-- that's part of my point. The silver coins will never be worthless because they at least contain silver. Silver, which is a precious metal. As opposed to aluminum, which is the most common metallic element in the Earth's crust.

As for putting a silver quarter in a pop machine, why on earth would you want to do that, since the silver in the coin is worth at least 18 times the face value!

 

I am, too, to tell you the truth. One of the reasons, I suspect, is that they are not listed in the Redbook, except for some copycat items like the Machin's Mills pieces. Another reason is that the British silver and gold pieces really did not circulate in the colonies; the colonists seemed to be more familiar with the Spanish Empire pieces, and that's one reason why the Spanish Milled Dollar (8 reales) became the basis for the US Dollar. So even though I have a 1774 gold guinea, with a picture of King George III on it, it would be tough to sell it to an American as an "American" piece, even though the coin could have been used by the king to pay his Hessian mercenaries who were hired to fight the colonists.

 

I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but there is history beyond these 50 states (and a few possesions and commonwealths). I'm as pro-American as anyone, but I also enjoy Ancient and British coins and their history.

Fortunately, the lower interest in the US of non-American coins is reflected by the better values to be found in the "foreign" coins.


guy

 

People collect what they are familiar with.
Unless you have unlimited financial means, folks have priorities and that is natural.
I am in the US, I am familiar with US coins, they are easy to get where I am, and if I had the afforementioned $1300, I'd buy a nice 09-s VDB cent, since that is what I am used to and what a collector in my locale strives to attain. World coins are great! There are plenty of gorgeous and desireable world coins... I fully intend to collect world coins when my US coin/currency collection is complete in full!
Basically, there is too much 'collection' to worry with at home to expend time, money, and energy to expand beyond.

If I lived in another country... I'd collect that country's coins, then go on to world coins when my home collection was complete.
It's the same all over.

 

One thing about scarcity-- I have been saving modern Japanese 50-yen coins by date. I have every one that was made, except for the 1987, which only is available in mint sets (and has a mintage of 772,000), and the last three years-- 2008, 09, and 10. All 50-yen coins minted since 2000, in fact, could be considered scare since the average mintage for these coins is less than one coin for every 10 people living in the Japan. So these coins are scarce since they are not easily found in circulation, even though they are current and legal tender. Would you be willing to pay me a significant premium for any of my 50-yen coins from the past 10 years given that they (nearly) all have mintages of less than 10 million?

 

Thanks for the link.

You're missing the point.

They aren't selling 1924 or 1959 Danish Krones by the thousand or even a single piece. You can't call them up for a 1983 Irish 50P because they won't have a single one. There are hundreds of thousands of US and world moderns and they have perhaps a few hundred in large quantity. If you look at the list you'll see some patterns to what they do have; they are newer and they are very low denomination. As I said the scarcities tend to be older and they tend to be high denomination which generally means copper nickel.

What they have isn't important. What's in the piles of coins that come into coin shops isn't important. It's what ECC and coin dealers don't have that's important. And what's not in those piles of coins are most of the high denomination coins of the US and the world made in the last 75 years.

These are just simple facts. If you don't believe it try putting together something real easy like a Polish modern aluminum set. Ha!!! You could work on it 50 years and you won't find them all and the prices will be sky high by the time you get close.

Of course there's a connection. It was the year man landed on the moon as the world watched. Remember "One small step for (a) man, one giant leap for mankind"?

.

Fine. So I guess the 1866 half dollars aren't collectible at all and should just be turned in for scrap.

I hear people say this all the time and without exception they have piles of whatever they'd rather have and not a single one of the coin in question. They not only don't have it but usually have never even seen one. I'm not saying tht an '50-E is necessarily more desirable than a $20 gold piece, I'm saying it's far far far more scarce. Collect what you want to but ignoring moderns doesn't make them more common.

I'm referring to the mainland China 5f piece. These were probably kindda low mintage but it's not listed.

So if I buy an 1804 dollar for $3,000,000 I can always get the $23 melt value for it no matter what happens. This doesn't sound like a deal to me. If I buy $3,000,000 worth of circulating 5c coins they'll always be worth at least $4,000,000. Neither of these plans seem to make much sense to me. I'm going to buy coins I like and understand and to me clads are about the most fun you can have. They're probably the most bang for the buck too, but who cares. If my roll of Wyoming quarters doesn't go up in a few years I can spend it and get my whole $10 back less inflation. If my 1986 Irish 50P ever crashes I'll only be out a couple dollars but until then it's still worth $150. It will "always" be worth 50p.

It doesn't matter if you put it in or not since it won't accept it. Imagine that. In the event of a deflationary depression that $23 protection for the 1804 dollar might just disappear. It might not even be worth a dollar. I bet I wouldn't have trouble spending clad.

Maybe you're into the wrong coins.

 

I understand that there is history beyond the 50 states. But how much of that history do Americans know, much less feel some sort of connection to? A coin minted in another country in the same year as a major historical event in the United States is not really going to invoke images of that historical event among US collectors. If you have a Romanian coin from 1927, for example, is it going to remind you of Lindbergh's trans-Atlantic flight? Will a Japanese coin from 1929 invoke images of the stock market crash?

Personally, I have a huge collection of non-American coins, as well as a few dozen ancients. Some of them are interesting, some of them aren't.

 

Actually this is a very impressive collection. All the later dates are probably pretty easy and always will be but some of those early dates are real bears. You're probably aware the '55 to 1961 issues all have pretty substantial premiums. In my experience these premiums are warranted (up to $50 for the 1960) but I believe they are fully priced and they won't increase until there's a substantial increase in demand. But the '67 and '68 are grossly underpriced and are worth multiples of catalog. The '68 is probably a little better. It had a mintage of 200,000,000 but there were no mint sets and it wasn't saved. Even XF's and AU's are tough. The '69 appeared in a low mintage set and is underpriced greatly as a single. The '70, '71 and '72 are in higher mintage sets with high attrition and are also underpriced. The '74 and '75 issue are in very unstable by high mintage mint sets. Most of these have been destroyed by PVC by now. It's open to debate how many survive but the coins in th sets were very gemmy.

I'd say you have a great set and I would be interested in trading for it or possibly purchasing it.

This set can be put together all day long in circulated grades but many of the uncs are far more desirable than the price indicates. The home market prices these much higher than does Krause and in my opinion the home market undervalues them.

Gems shouldn't be too tough except for the '67 and '68. I concentrate a little more on the 100y but the ...50y are just as nice.

 

You are missing the point. The 1866 piece has historical value, silver value, and collector value. But if I tried to sell that same 1866 piece in most foreign countries, I would almost assuredly get less for it than if I sold it to an American collector.

If I had that East German coin, I would sell it. It holds no significance or attraction for me. For that matter, I have several aluminum East German coins that I will gladly sell. Are you interested?

Bringing up the 1804 dollar is a silly argument, and I think you know it. The 1804 dollar transcends the bounds of simple precious metal content and enters the realm of supply and demand. Barring some huge cataclysmic event, there will always be well-heeled American collectors who will crawl over each other for the chance to bid on such a coin. As there will always be well-heeled collectors who will jump at the chance to bid on a 1913 Liberty nickel, or an 1838-0 Bust half, because they are rare American coins.

In contrast, I have a 1739-K French ecu coin, of which only a handful are known. It is certainly dozens of times scarcer than a 1909-S VDB Lincoln cent or a 1916-D Mercury dime. And yet, if I offered that to most American dealers, they would probably make some sort of ridiculous offer, like "melt minus 10%", because they have no demand for such a coin despite its scarcity.

See my explanation above. The 1804 dollar is in no danger of becoming less valuable than 4 1965 quarters, and you know that.

And, finally, to summarize my argument about silver versus base metal:

1964 silver quarter, EF-- worth close to $5*
1965 clad quarter, EF-- worth 25 cents

1961 France silver 5 francs-- worth $8 or more for the silver.
1971 France copper-nickel 5 francs-- worth next to nothing, especially in circulated grades (originally worth about $1 US)

1966 France silver 10 francs-- worth more than $20 for the silver alone
Bimetallic France 10 francs-- worth next to nothing, especially in circulated grades (originally worth about $2 US).

1959 Netherlands silver 1 gulden-- worth close to $4 for the silver alone.
1971 Netherlands nickel 1 gulden-- I saw a dealer offering $3/pound for demonetized nickel-composition Dutch 10cent- 2.5 gulden pieces. Since one 1 gulden piece weighs about 6 grams, you would need about 75 of them to make a pound.

1916 silver Great Britain florin-- worth about $10 for the silver alone, more if in higher grades.
1966 copper-nickel Great Britain florin-- worth 20 cents in a dealer's junk box


*One more thing-- I have my doubts about your story about vending machines not accepting silver quarters. One of the reasons why the clad composition was adopted was that it most closely resembled the metallic properties of the silver coins, so the vending machine industry would not have to retool its machines to accept the new coins. Why on earth would the vending machine industry retool machines so that they would not accept silver coins? And back to my previous question, why on earth would you, or anyone else, even want to drop a silver quarter in a vending machine to partially cover the cost of a soda, when you know that you can probably get 18 times its face value from a dealer?

 

that is a good point. im glad this thread has caused so much debate. one thing that i contnually see thrown around on this and other forums is the question of values and making a profit from collecting. this has never been an issue for me as i will never sell on my collection i am just taking good care of my coins untill i pass them on to the next lucky person (hopefully it will be my daughter). another point to raise is that of history. it is not just major historical events like the moon landings or the civil war that add to a coin, it is the evry day people whose hands these coins have passed through. some body worked hard once to earn this money. so who am i to deem it worthless? i dont know whose hands my victorian penny has been through and could never possibly find out but it is a link to a time that we can never know, to people living a life that we wil never experience and that is where the true value of my coin comes from, not from how much i could get for melting it down. who am i to destroy a piece of history?

 

What one finds attractive and wants to collect is an individual decision of course; I for one focus on the coins that you do not like ...

As for euro coins, I guess that people around here on one hand, and collectors outside the euro area on the other hand, have different perspectives: Over here I can find pieces from 20 countries and with lots of different designs in circulation and get them in change. (OK, practically the coins from, say, Malta or the Vatican do not show up often where I live. ) People who prefer ancient, medieval or 19c coins, however, may find them dull and are attracted by other "features" instead. Wouldn't it be terrible if we all liked the same kinds of coins?

Christian

 

do you want new fiji? i have a spare 1 and 2 cent coins you can have,

 

When one starts spending thousands of dollars or pounds or whatever for coins, the incentive to at least break even on that "investment" is huge, especially if one has a wife who has agreed to let husband indulge in his habit if there is at least a chance to get the money back at some time down the road.

 

Finally, a touch of logic on this topic!

 

"Logic" = "Whatever I agree with"

 

The lowest possible price isn't the price that defines value. If you offer the 1804 dollar to a motel silver buyer the offer doesn't magically become the new value. And the dealer on the corner won't offer you a fair price for most moderns or old French silver. You just don't take scarce tokens and medals to the corner shop if you want a fair price.

In this hobby you have to sell everything to the right buyer to get fair value. There are simply more places you can take a typical XF bust half and get a fair offer than almost any other type of coin. Does this mean everyone should just collect what's popular and allow every single modern coin minted to be lost or melted? Does this mean people in the US shouldn't collect French coins. Should tokens and medals just be forgotten and something only rarely mentioned in history books?

 

Non-USA coins help me regain some sanity after chasing Matte Proof 1918 Lincoln Wheat Cents for too long
Like when you visit a fragrance counter at a department store and test a cologne that you are interested in and before you test another , you take a few deep inhales of the the whole roasted coffee beans at the counter.
Non-USA coins are just like "a few deep inhales of the the whole roasted coffee beans at the counter".

 

Once again, you seem to be missing my point, which is trying to explain why American collectors in general tend to shun foreign coins, especially base metal modern foreign coins. I myself have nothing against foreign coins per se, and probably have more foreign coins than US coins in my collection, to tell the truth. But American collectors, as with collectors in most countries, tend to gravitate toward those coins which are most familiar to them, that is, the coins of their home country.