Why did NGC bag the coin as AT?

+1 Seen coins with toning that defies this, unless they were fine before going into the slabs. It's not hard to AT a coin.

 

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why does AT vs NT bug me so much... ????


I guess i can't, nor will I ever subscribe to the notion that there is a difference. a chemical reaction is a chemical reaction. Whether someone puts a coin in an album unknowing that it would turn the coin colors, is not any different than someone who puts a coin in an album KNOWING that it will turn colors.

When the grading services try and determine ethics........ based on intent.... to colorize a coin... It's just plain dumb... no it's stupid....... I can't for the life of me figure out why they don't - didn't just grade them all with environmental damage, or factor thier opinion of toning as just one more characteristic of determining a grade.


If they would just accept all coins toned for what they are and grade them accordingly..... The market would then be flooded with them and that would be end of people paying moon money for coins from accidental or intentional chemistry experiments.

 

Don't get me started with those TPGs. They are abusing their power by purposely calling natural toned coins as artifical toned. They need to get off of their high horse and begin grading coins as to what they really rate. They are supposed experts regarding NT vs. AT and they are purposely returning coins as artifical left and right. What is going on with them? I have some beautiful toners that I know to be natural, but haven't sent them in to a TPG for the reasons above. I will wait until they all calm down and get over this complete fiasco and start doing what they are paid to do and that is to grade coins. Why are these companies afraid to call a coin natural? I just can't figure it out. By the way, I love your naturally toned Morgan!

 

that's not what is generally meant by artifical toning, eyeeat. Artificial toning is any toning that was put on the coin through artificial means. IOW, not done over time, but done over a very short period of time, if not all at once. Taking a torch to a coin will impart a tone on it when it cools. That's artificial. Placing a coin into an album and waiting for it to tone is natural toning.

 

Which do you prefer? A vine-ripened tomato or one that is zapped with chemicals to turn red overnight? Or how about an apple that is picked right from the tree as opposed to one that is stored in a nitrogen-enriched warehouse for the entire winter?

Chris

 

To look at? I don't care.

There are a host of ways to tell those fruits you mentioned apart, reliably and unambiguously. They differ not just in their method of production, but in their smell, their taste, their nutritional content, and their chemical composition.

NT vs. AT coins? Sorry, but as far as I know, if the coin is exposed to the proper chemicals, there's no reliably-detectable difference. I can certainly understand why someone would prefer a coin that toned over the span of decades rather than over the span of hours or minutes. I just don't know of any objective way to examine a coin and determine which way it happened.

 

I understand your frustration, but the TPG's are doing what they are supposed to be doing with regards to toning. Here is a quote from PCGS's THE OFFICIAL GUIDE TO COIN GRADING AND COUNTERFEIT DETECTION.

I have in the very recent past claimed that the TPG's do not consciously change their standards regarding numerical grading. However, I will freely admit that both NGC and PCGS change their standards regarding the "market acceptability" of toned coins. As Doug has stated many times, nobody, including professional graders can prove the origin of toning. When the TPG's are provided with evidence that a particular toning pattern or color scheme is the product of a coin doctor, that toning pattern becomes unacceptable and stops getting graded. The coins that Shane showed have toning patterns that are basically the same as many NT coins but seem to have a unique "look". When the TPG's think they are viewing a coin with that "look" they are going to bag it. Unfortunately, the OP's coin was probably bagged for this reason even though all of the indicators point to NT. In the end, NGC felt that the doubt was strong enough to warrant bagging the coin.

There is no abuse of power going on here. As an avid collector of toned coins, I am happy they bagged that coin. It shows that NGC follows their own policy regarding the subject. Furthermore, how do you know that your coins are NT? We would love to see photos of your coins if you are willing to show them!

 

Well said....

 

I see nothing except original US Mint canvas bag toning on this coin...maybe not impossible to re-create, but probably impossible.

If the grade don't fit, you must resubmit!

 

I agree. There is nothing "unnatural" under the sun. Everything we do is natural and according to the laws of nature. Whether your toning process takes years or minutes is merely a matter of the difference in time, and what arbitrary time period are we going to establish to define AT vs. NT?

 

Now that I said that, I realize that Matt was not starting a thread debating AT/NT, so I don't want to hijack it along these lines. My opinion is that in more and more cases, the TPGs nor anyone can determine how a coin was toned and in the case of the TPGs it just become a CYA thing for them.

 

It gets better than that! The way Doug explained it is that it is intentional toning vs. unintentional.

I think it is riidculous to store morgans in albums, for long term storage I am going to put them back in the bag they came from and tuck them in a dark corner by the sauna in the basement.

 

What a hilarious and unique phrase! It's classic. I like your wit and thanks so much for the great laugh I got out of it.

 

I would be more than happy to post photographs of my naturally toned Morgans. Just give me a chance to figure out how do do that and I'll have the photographs posted with hopefully not too much effort and a lot of luck!

 

Thanks for the thread . A perfect example for any " seasoned " collector or new comer . There are quite a few changes occurring in the world of TPG's today , and this seems to be a good example of one.

 

I also think the coin looks good, but then they don't pay me to grade.

 

Frankly, the subjectivity of NT/AT and the TPGs consistency (or lack thereof) on MA is not a new issue. MA has always been a moving target, IMO.

 

What is "MA"?

And why is the forum software suddenly insisting on converting it to lowercase?

 

True .