eBay vs rest of the coin selling world

POST SOME FACTS to back up what you are saying!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! what does dealer to dealer pricing have to do with 90% of the people on here? Are you saying that you use dealer to dealer pricing to negotiate with dealers?

Anyone who ignores the shear volume of coins that is sold on eBay and subsequently ignores that data can not possibly be knowledgeable. Would you like to take a guess on what they do in coins sales monthly, weekly, daily, hourly? Take a guess, cause it looks like you are great at guessing.


I just searched the 1909VDB MS63/64/65 Red

the closing price on ebay for those 3 coins over the last ninety days - if I must , I can copy and post the data to back up any of the below.

63RD
numis wholesale=$44 - Retail=$53 - eBay=$53


64RD
numis wholesale=$74 - Retail=$92 - eBay=$76


65RD
numis wholesale=$112 - Retail=$146 - eBay=$124



total them up

numis suggested retail price for those 3 coins is $291
numis suggested wholesale price for those 3 coins is $230

the average closing price on eBay for those 3 coins is $253

The eBay numbers include shipping!

I am happy to look at compare any statistical information that accessible to the public to beat the eBay averages. Please tell where I am most likely to get the best deal.. would you like the average closing price on HA for those 3 coins? Sure why not..


LOL there are no immediate results for the 63RD on HA I guess that coin is beneath them.

ADD $5? each item for shipping

MS64RD
Auction 211011, Lot 20409 Tuesday, January 4, 2011 64 PCGS $62.00
Auction 210123, Lot 24663 Tuesday, December 21, 2010 64 PCGS $62.00
Auction 210123, Lot 24020 Tuesday, December 21, 2010 64 PCGS $59.00
Auction 210122, Lot 22013 Tuesday, December 14, 2010 64 PCGS $74.00
Auction 210114, Lot 26392 Tuesday, November 23, 2010 64 PCGS $64.00


MS65RD

Auction 210124, Lot 26021 Tuesday, December 28, 2010 65 PCGS $109.25
Auction 210123, Lot 24664 Tuesday, December 21, 2010 65 PCGS $109.25
Auction 211011, Lot 20008 Tuesday, January 4, 2011 65 NGC $74.00
Auction 210121, Lot 20383 Tuesday, December 7, 2010 65 NGC $109.25
Auction 210112, Lot 22017 Tuesday, November 9, 2010 65 PCGS $128.80


MS66RD
Auction 1151, Lot 9432 Sunday, January 9, 2011 66 PCGS $253.00
Auction 1151, Lot 9433 Sunday, January 9, 2011 66 PCGS $218.50
Auction 1151, Lot 9434 Sunday, January 9, 2011 66 PCGS $230.00
Auction 1151, Lot 9435 Sunday, January 9, 2011 66 PCGS $201.25
Auction 1151, Lot 9436 Sunday, January 9, 2011 66 PCGS $253.00

 

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agreed.... no risks - no rewards... you are smart guy, you could figure out what Bahabully and i know to look for. on second thought stay at TT and others , as mentioned, deals are getting harder to find ...

 

there are not enough sales of that coin on eBay to gather data, crap loads of listing that don't sell... Tell ya what I would be happy to do the research, but it gets to the point that it does nothing for me to prove it to you. you can do your own research.

However as a point of closure - YOU PROVIDED THE SEARCH CRITERIA. the word cleaned can be excluded from the title by using a minus sign. but since there are only 4 sales with 1875 20 Cent AU in the title and one happened to be cleaned. YOU should disseminate the data.

It appears that PCGS and NGC coins do not sell on eBay - look at the listing below the 4 that sold .... NGC AU BIN $995 didn't sell.

so I'll do the math for you. normally when you do averages you throw out the high and the low - those are your anomalies. ie. cleaned. Did you miss that part?

Avg w/o cleaned coin = $312
Avg with AU cleaned coin = $277

What does a AU coin sell for on TT or HA?



LOL looky what i found within seconds ROFLMAO!



1875 20C --Improperly Cleaned--NGC Details. AU. NGC Census: (8/274). PCGS Population (34/337). Mintage: 36,900. Numismedia W...
Lot 9350 NGC Details AU50 --
Auction ended on Oct 30, 2010
Sold For: $460.00‡
Make An Offer To Owner


Looks like you can buy a cleaned AU 20 Cent peice for $179 - get it holdered at NGC and resell it for $460 on Heritage.


what now? still lol'ing

 

I have already show why your search-based price averaging is making the eBay results skewed.

Yet you continue to use this flawed data over and over. To be a bit more blunt, you are including cleaned, self graded, and other problem coins on eBay when there are none in TT or Heritage (or at least their frequency is far lower).

Facts are useless if the facts are generated in such a way as to yield the answer you're seeking.

 

Widgets at low prices? While that may be a bit blunt and insensitive, and frankly applies more to you than Baha, that's my impression.

BTW, I very, very rarely buy at TT. My last purchase there was almost two years ago.

I purchase coins from large auctions where I can see the coins I"m bidding on (or have them viewed for me), or directly from dealers and collectors who give me the same privilege. I don't look for "good deals", I look for "good coins". Rarely are the two one and the same, in my experience.

But hey, that's just me. And if you float your boat by buying common coins for low prices -- MORE POWER TO YOU!

Just don't try and make apples to apples comparisons when you're really comparing apples to oranges.

 

I'm not the one making the argument, you are. Therefore the burden of proof is on you.

However, hoping to help, here's another suggestion -- try a certified coin (for instance include PCGS or NGC in your search term), actually look at the auctions you are including to be sure none are misrepresented, and include 25 examples of each coin. Something like "1880-s PCGS MS65 Morgan" would likely work -- but I think you should actually look at the auction listing to be sure no problem or raw coins are included in your sample set (i.e. don't make the same mistake again).

I suspect, rather strongly, that your 20% will get much, much smaller. The remaining difference, if there is one, is likely attributed to one of the following:

1) Trust in the seller/venue
2) Average quality of coin (i.e. better coins tend NOT to be sold on eBay).
3) Experience level of buyer (GDJMSP's point, which I believe is quite valid) and also the seller.
4) The ability to view the coins in-hand prior to bidding (HA and other auction houses provide this service, whereas eBay and TT wholly do not).
5) The price of a reserve.

But please, re-run your queries and see what they say once you remove the skewed data from the eBay sample -- at least then we'll be arguing based on a fair comparison.

No, I didn't miss that, and I am well aware of statistical analysis. More studied on the topic, I'll wager, than you.

Regardless, it doesn't take a deep understanding of statistics to realize that you've included problem and overgraded coins in your eBay auctions, when the frequency of these occurring in TT or HA is far lower, and thus skewing your answer in favor of lower prices on eBay.

Said a bit more directly, what good is throwing out high and low, if throwing out the low still leaves cleaned and self/over-graded coins in the eBay sample? Not a bit of good if you ask me -- unless you're trying to make the point that you can buy coins on eBay for less.

What now?

How about you make an apples to apples comparison with a sample size large enough to draw conclusions that are statistically meaningful rather than including data that skew your results and then cherry-picking one example that doesn't really prove anything.

 

Gee Mr. Wheatie, You started this thread asking for "facts" rather than "opinions." When I pointed out the fact that Ebay can never be considerred a value source due to the "rules of the game;" your response was "go ahead and pay 20% more." When medoraman responded to my premise he had it right: "on ebay trying to bid REAL TIME (my caps) are the ones not playing THE GAME (my caps). You are consistantly using numbers that result from winning a round of super mario. Those numbers have nothing to do with values. Ask yourself why a number of websites are making a very good living with programs designed to squeeze a bid into the very last possible microsecond of an Ebay "auction " Just like you said at the start of this: garbage in, garbage out. Your premise is invalid because you are using garbage to justify it!

 

Thing is, there are different ways to make a profit:

1) Buy something at a low price, then sell it at a higher price.

2) Inherit something, then sell it at any price higher than the tax burden you've already paid.

3) Find something that you didn't even know you had, then sell it at any price at all.

4) Steal something, then sell it at any price at all.

I'm sure there are plenty more possibilities. But I'm also sure that all four of these are well-represented on eBay, along with the people who are willing to sell at a loss in order to make some fast cash.

 

Once again , another thread that has escalated to a complete impasse . It's senseless to continue re-stating the obvious faults of such data only to be met with the same irrational assertions.

 

As a roll searcher who is trying to widen his collection of "varieties", the sales data seems about right. The OP showed Numismat vales of the 1909s higher than the grey sheet values with eBay sales being between. Items I have sold on eBay did not get me full retail, but got me much more than the wholesale a dealer would pay. I never sell to a dealer now. And although I never make big ticket purchases sight unseen, the lower value items I have got on eBay have saved me money from what I would expect to pay at a shop or coin show.

I don't think this erodes the value of items, because of the nature of numismatic sales. But ti does give everyone an opportunity to shop at a wider selection of sellers than would otherwise be possible. But as so many have mentioned and I agree with, Valuable items need to be "in hand" for evaluation before you can safely make a purchase. IMHO

 

This may be the first thread in a very long time which I could say...... everyone is right. or at least directionally correct.... and it's only in the extreme of each persons argument where problems can be pointed to.. Usually I can stand on one side of an issue within a thread and enjoy a heated debate, but really can't find my footing in this one.

Anyway,,, Interesting thread, and I fully disagree with no one that I've seen post.

All the comparative stuff motivated me to check a few 13D's out.. There's one on the 'bay closing today that I was watching closely until it peaked over $200 (pcgs ms63 rb).. right in my sweet spot, so decided to check out HC 13'd archives and current offerings..... most of the HC archived 13d sales were old, but significantly "lower" than $200 with the exception of one old pcgs slab that had much more Red than the one on the 'bay..... If anything, this observation has opened my eyes abit more with respect to the need to do more comparative shopping before dialing too far into any single offering on any site, I'm not watching the 'bay 13D anymore and am now tracking a few sharp AU's and a couple MS's 13d's on HC... how they close will tell me alot (maybe the FUN cents were just overblown by an excessively large audience)...
.. that said, and with respect to super deals and getting quality coins at "dealer" costs or below,,, I don't think you'll do it effectively anywhere else but the 'bay.. and it's about one a year, maybe two,, provided you put in hundreds of hours of work, my personnal routine is an hour a day, sometimes more... ~300-500 hrs per year..... anyone wanna translate that to days sitting on my edited annually. ; )

 

I have purchased quite a few graded coins from HA, David Lawrence and a couple from TT when I had the resources to purchase in the past. (currently unemployed) But since I do enjoy my coin collecting habit :yes: I am now limited to most of my purchases from Ebay.

In the last few months I had to sell some of my higher price coins because of my current situation and after contacting a couple of online auction house who indicated to me that they were not really interested in selling them for me because of the small amount I went with the EBay route. (By the way, most of these coins where brought from these auction houses.)

It is my opinion and from my experience selling these coins on Ebay resulted in a lower price than my purchased price from either HA, TT and DL. Perhaps, I paid too much for them to begin with but I can assure you before any coin purchase I do research using HA, TT, Grey sheet and the NumisMedia FMV Price Guide and thought I paid the correct price.

In my opinion there are difference type of collectors within this discussion, in that some are in the position to obtain higher graded coins and some are not. I believe everyone is correct from their perspective and there is no single correct way of determining where to purchase your coins.

Ebay has provides me as a collector with very limited resources a way to continue with collecting, by allowing me to purchase some raw coins and lower graded coins that I don't normally see available at HA, TT or DL at a lower price.

 

Two thirds of my super scores off the 'bay were raw.... then sent in for certification. You may find that there is some gold in that dreg 'bay stuff Farstaff............... as my disposable has risen over time, my tendency to search raw 'bay has decreased and I generally only browse the 'bay in deal scoring mode via "auctions" and "certified".... but still try to include "uncertified" at least every other week, but that more than doubles my time spent.... If I were in your boat I would have no problems doing what your doing and being excited about the potential opportunities out there.

 

Undoubtedly, your ability to score rips from the comfort of your computer chair is unrivaled on eBay.

To wit, my biggest rip came from purchasing a raw coin on eBay with poor pics. It is an 1889 gold dollar I've posted on this forum many times. Purchased for $200ish on eBay, it certified at PCGS as MS 65 and is worth in excess of $2k.

I don't say that to brag. To the contrary, I feel a bit badly about it in retrospect. I share it in hopes that it shows that I believe you guys when you say it's a great place to find "scores", "rips", or "deals" -- I have experienced it myself.

However -- and I speak only for me -- I don't really look at coin purchases like that any more. Here's why: When I find myself looking over my collection, I'm not drawn to the coins I "ripped". I'm drawn to the coolest coins, and I can't think of a single example (and there are more than just the 1889 gold dollar) that I purchased as a "rip".

Now if you really like getting bargains, and making money off buying and selling coins -- MORE POWER TO YOU!

 

I do consider the investment side of collecting as I compile my targeted coins..... and I do give my fair share of sales to auctions and dealers w. the premium.... but I like to ballance those premium spends with a as many super deals here and there so I don't take a total bath when it comes time to sell my collection (if that day should come). These super deals should not leave the least bit of bad taste in anyone's mouth,, there are many motives for sellers to sell and many are quite happy with "any" money they make from a coin transaction... and it's you or I to take that coin or else a dealer sure as heck would in a flash. Intercepting the flow of coins from the market back to the dealer is a collectors biggest opportunity to lower his/her overall premium loss that we all get hit with buying coins from dealers and in most large auctions (even ebay),,
Now for those who simply collect coins for the fun and do not regard or care about the dollars spent.... call me, I have some nice coins to show you. ; )

 

The data is not flawed you never said you wanted cleaned coins excluded... besides isn't it generally accepted that all circulated coins over a hundred years old have been cleaned in one shape or another?

 

I sure do.. However, I am not perfect, tell me Mr Coin Savant and Guru. what specifically is wrong since that is how I am taking your post.

 

I haven't checked specifically into that aspect - the indications are that I think you are spot on. The items that didn't sell were listings with either a BIN well above the average or an AUction with too high of a selling price.

It would take awhile to determine whether those sellers eventually lower the BIN on the item or whether they took it to auction.. That data would be very interesting to know. I have seen the comment several times that when a coin sells and it has to be relisted - for some reason - it ends up selling for less the second time around. Probably due to collectors of specific series noticing the re- list on the coin and suspect something is wrong so the stay away...

I should add, that often when I see a seller relisting a BIN for a coin I want that is priced to high. Most are willing to negotiate some when contacted in spite of not having a Best Offer on their listing.

 

For 100 year old coins? No, the expectation is not that they have all been cleaned. 200 years old it gets much harder, and most ancients have been cleaned. Lincoln pennies? Nope.

Your post was arguing Ebay was cheaper than other sites, then your data explicitly showed that it was more expensive, in the areas Doug highlighted.

Overall, I think people are saying to be fair comparisons that mean anything, you would have to take certified coins of the same grading companies, same grades, and approxiamtely same period then compare sites. Anything else is not real.