I have been following a lot of the toning threads and have started thinking about buying a few. I have a question though... Since there is no way to know for sure if a coin is naturally toned or artificially toned (unless it's just ridiculous), do you guys think people will start steering clear of toners?
I love toned coins. I think a nice darker coin is just more attractive than bright silver or copper. Unless you know you will keep this coin forever, I would be very hesitant of paying outrageous premiums for just the toning though. If two coins are booked at $100, paying $120 for a prettier one is fine, I personally would be nervous about paying "multiples" of book just because of the toning.
Coin doctors have become much better over the last few years and TPG's have become more cautious as a result so it could come out as a wash as far as how many AT coins are in holders, I personally will continue to buy the color if its in a NGC or PCGS holder. I recently sent a washie in an ICG holder to cross to NGC (ngc registry set) and it came back as ungraded, questionable toning. I don't buy raw coins anymore as I don't trust my level of expertise, got burned a few too many times.
The only way to steer clear of toned coins is to buy untoned coins. Most of the untoned coins in the market have been dipped. I don't forsee the entire collecting base flocking to coins that they know have been messed with just because the toned coins that they actually like might have been messed with. Despite what the idiots in magazines might be saying, the toned coin market has faired very well during the current economic recession. If you are interested in toned coins but want to limit the chance of unknowingly buying an AT coin, follow this advice: 1) When buying toned coins, purchase only certified coins graded by PCGS or NGC. DO NOT BUY RAW TONED COINS. While buying only certified coins does not guarantee that the toning is natural, it signifies that the toning is market acceptable and serves as a financial safety net for the coin. 2) Do not buy coins with unusual toning patterns and color schemes. Stick to the common patterns and search for a coin that has excellent luster and vibrant colors. 3) Do not pay exorbatant premiums for toned coins until you have the requisite experience and confidence to judge the qualities of the coin for yourself. 4) Ask for opinions before you purchase the coin, not after. You can always post a photo of your potential purchase on Cointalk and solicit opinions before you buy. If you are worried about others buying your coin, you can always contact me via PM for a private opinion. My last comment is about the information that you get on forums such as these. If you ask for opinions, you will get all kinds from all kinds of people. Before lending weight to a particular opinion, it is wise to consider the credentials of the person lending advice before accepting their opinion.
I appreciate the replies. I will definitely be posting anything I'm thinking about buying before I take the plunge.
Well I didn't see the entire collector base flocking to colored coins regardless of attractiveness being worth "premiums" either. It was that way for 150 years, kinda hard to predict it will never return that way. A safety net, maybe. It will not protect you from losing money by paying 5x book for a coin that when tastes change the market only values at book. NGC and PCGS is not guaranteeing market premiums. Great advice, toning used to, and I believe still is, used to cover up problem coins. It can be very dangerous buying a heavily toned coin unless its graded, and even then you are not sure the effect of the toning on the underlying metal. Or just don't pay exorbatant premiums for toning at all. More excellent advice. Lehigh is a good guy and knows this market. Yup, read other stuff that people post before you believe anything on the internet, and even then take things with a grain of sand. Everyone who has ever read the Redbook considers themselves a US coin "expert". Just a different perspective than Lehigh, but I do value your opinion man.
One small problem Paul, the idiots in the magazines are merely reporting what is happening on the dealer netwoks. Specifically that being that offered Bids are specified for white, or nearly white coins. Bids are not being offered on toned coins.
This is great advice that I would consider carefully if I were a new collector -- #3 in particular. One item I would add to Lehigh's list is: 5) Work with a good dealer who knows and understands toned coins. Not necessarily the one with the biggest inventory, or the nicest website, or the best pictures, or the most posts on a forum. An honest dealer with a good eye and a record of treating customers fairly -- and who stands behind their coins. References from collectors are very good in this regard, and I'm sure that many folks around here would be more than happy to share their thoughts on this topic if solicited. Hope this helps...Mike
They report what their sponsors want them to report. Is there and ad for E-Z-est on the opposing pages of these magazines? Ya know Doug, given how cynical you are about the motives and business practices of the TPG's, your willingness to call anything written in a magazine as "reporting" is surprising.
Paul not everything written in a magazine is false, twisted, biased - or whatever other word you want to use. There are these things called facts every now and then. And it might really be to your benefit to keep an open mind instead of being so biased yourself
How can you call me biased? You didn't quote a magazine, you just made a blanket statement with no backup. If you are going to blow smoke, then I will as well.
No, I didn't quote a magazine directly. But what I said here is what it said in the magazine. And in exactly that way. It was Numismatic News. If you haven't figured it out yet you should have - I don't blow smoke.
Well to answer the OP's question, as of right now the toning market is still extremely strong and there are not any signs of that changing! Enjoying collecting them! Just remember when it comes to toning: You get what you pay for!
Not to jump into the fray but the comments made by NN are just not true or your possibly misconstruing what was written because dealer bid/buy prices have always been for white coins...always becuase there is no way to sight unseen post a bid price for a toned coin as no too are alike? That information changes the whole contexts of what was suposedly written in Numismatic news doesn't it or did they provide some sort of proof? How do I know the comments are untrue.....well for startes I am neck deep in the market, my friends are neck deep....I see what folks are paying or are willing to pay for toned coins across all venues including shows. I am a buyer myself for inventory and my collection...I know what i have to pay and I know what i have had to pay over the past 5 years and yes there was drop in prices after the battle creek sales that coincided with the economy tanking....2006/2007 but I can assure you that the market has rebounded a good chunk of the way back to 2005 levels. Evidence of that comes from the Sunnywood sale and Bryan Sonier sale...those coins brought moon money even for the most common dates. You would say that I am biased in my reporting of what's going on across dealer networks but I am simply reporting the reality of what is going on in the market and that was once again enhanced by my purchase of roughly 80 toned coins yesterday at FUN. Enhanced by my discussions with dealers of both toned coins and dealer who don't specialize in them but might have a few at their tables from time to time. Where Newmismatic news is getting there news from I surely don't know but the market they are describing most be in a parallel universe becuase I don't see any truth to what was written. If I was buying toners at strong prices and then losing money selling them on Ebay....how long do you think I could afford to continue with that practice if there wasn't a ready supply of buyers grabbing them up....how about Dick from greatoning....?
That's true of the bullion market or any other market not just toners.....when markets collapse folks lose money and this is not a unique phenomenon to toned coin collecting.
No, its not. You are completely correct. However, it just appears the risk in this market is fairly high with no diagnostics to show relative value, (like grading and dates for coins), or international price setting mechanisms, (like bullion prices). It truly is an example of having no idea really what a coin should trade for, and therefor having a higher risk than average that when a person goes to sell they will lose money. You have to admit that most other areas of numismatics have more guidance concerning pricing, therefor a more stable market. Market collapse in toned coins would be something as simple as collector tastes changing, which happens pretty regularly. Look back in numismatic history and this is very clear. Regarding white coins "always" being on the bid/ask lists, I have seen many toned coins being exchanged this way. Some dealers hated it because you have to do more work to make sure the coin isn't damaged. I am just saying I have bought coins at ask and they were toned, back when there wasn't really a premium for them. Chris P.S. To reiterate, I love toned coins and own many. Any of my posts are posted not to hate on pretty coins, just pointing out some historical facts for new collectors to consider. I know that you dedicated toner collectors are aware of this, and simply think its different this time.
Precisely, there are risks, and the comments in this thread from toned coin collectors claiming their market is strong because they are active in it and claiming "You get what you pay for!" wasn't lending much support to the toning market strength/lack of strength argument. The mere suggestion of cracks in this market has been met by several proponents of maintaining this market in which they have significant moneys tied up, hence a vested interest in seeing the toned market remain strong to protect the value they have put into it and their collections. That goes beyond just, "Enjoying collecting them!" since it also takes defensive commentary to deflect any suggestion of weakness. Please note I am not against toned coins or the market for them. I quite admire them but I am seeing a heavy bias in this argument that is not fully objective in defending the toned coin market, which is solely being expressed by toned coin collectors currently.
No Shane, the bids are not always for white coins. And it doesn't matter if the coin is toned or not - no two white coins are the same either. Including those those of the same grade, graded by the same TPG, and with the same CAC sticker on them. Any collector worth his salt knows that. The important thing is this - it was the first time ever that there was a specification that the bids for ONLY for white or nearly white coins. What that tells me is that people are getting nervous. That they no longer wish to take the risk with toned coins and the extra costs. And if that way of thinking progresses - I feel sorry for you guys. I really do.
