The Toning Premium Thread

i know you didnt mean it that way I would show you another one If i could, but i have never seen another one like it.

 

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I have seen quite a few AT coins in my time, what some people call AT other people call Market acceptable.

 

I don't believe I ever saw this thread in reference to the above coin and I pride myself on being able to spot AT or questionably toned coins 95+ % of the time....with that said I can honestly say that I would have been fooled by this one as it looks like typically album toning to me. It certainly illustrates that none of us can detect AT 100% of the time....it's just impossible as there are some really good doctors out there.

 

I would of been as well since you would think not many people would take a gamble on such a high dollar coin. But now it would be a very suspicious coin.

 

And Rico got it correct. Bought it at the Parsippany NJ show around this time last year for $3200 from a guy named Charlie

 

Which begs the question, does it really matter as long as the toning appears to be natural?

 

The only reason I can think of that it matters is when the issue is viewed in the context of rarity and collector value applied to a toner vs. a non-toner. My point would be that toners can and are manufactured (or created intentionally) to meet demand. Folks should understand that not all toners they see are naturally created in "grandfathers closet" inside a shoe box over a 20-40 years time range.... Many, maybe even most, are intentionally toned using known high sulfer media storage,,, and often put in direct sunlight or other hot area to increase tone reaction..... that said, be careful not to bake in too much toner 'rarity' into your decisions to put $$'s into toners... as imo, they can be created and pass as NT'ed in short order as demand demands.

 

I'm curious, would anyone like to hazard a guess of the percentage of AT coins that might fall into the "undetectable" category? 5%? 10%? more?

This NT/AT controversy has me thinking of two others: the AU/MS threshold and the "acceptably" dipped/over-dipped threshold. In all these cases coins get improperly slabbed. Seems to me there will always be a grey area in these three circumstances.

 

Great points, and the way around them is to pay and grade based upon DETAILS, not artificial connivances like soft strike, cabinet friction, etc that US coins fall into. Ancients are graded, (or were until TPG'ers try to impose US standards), on how much detail is on a coin, how much luster, etc regardless of reason.

Seems pretty dang simple to me. US collectors will never switch, but US coin grading simply baffles me nowadays in the XF-BU area.

Regarding percentage AT/NT toned, I don't have a guess but I have seen gentlemen produce in a day from a dipped coin a coin looking exactly like it came out of a blue folder, sitting there for 40 years. It scared me so much I stopped that day buying toned coins, afraid of what the toning was hiding, (that is why they did it, they dipped and sometimes tooled a coin, and then retoned to cover up the tooling marks). I love pretty toning, especially silver, but too risky to buy heavily toned coins without a LOT of studying it. This is why toning was discounted, it takes more work to prove the coin isn't tampered with. Maybe with slabbing nowadays that risk is gone.

 

Maybe, maybe not -- I think each collector has to answer that question themselves.

However, it DOES make ME question paying huge premiums for toning.

The thought being, if the bottom fell out of the toner market, or some/all of my coins were shown to be AT, I could dip them and still salvage a large portion of my investment....as long as I haven't paid a huge premium for the toning, which I typically don't.

 

I suspect it's more than most people think.

I look at it like this...

There are no-brainer NT coins -- coins like Marauder's or Shane's bag-toned Morgans, or even 1956 mint set toners -- coins that are in all likelihood NT and fairly easy to identify by their very distinctive look.

There are no-brainer AT coins -- coins that never make it into holders. Think cheesy AT moderns placed in an oven and toned blue, or blue-toned AT proof copper like that posted above.

There there's everything else -- so called Market Acceptable (or Questionably Toned) coins. Coins like the Seated Dollar posted above (before it was proven to be AT) -- or even Marauder's bust half or my avatar to the left -- but also virtually any envelope or album toned coin. This makes up the majority of toned coins, and it is in this population of toned coins where the the doctors operate, and none of us know for sure just how many are natural and how many are artificially toned.

But my feeling is the problem is larger than most of us want to realize. Perhaps that's cynicism talking, but the more I learn about the coin game, the more I think the likelihood that a great many of us toning enthusiasts are being fooled.

But that's just me, and I certainly don't know it all or speak for anyone but myself.

 

...because they use the envelope and album to attractive AT coins. Really its just "speed enhanced" NT. If you want to be safe(r), I will tell you I have never seen anyone AT bag toning, but maybe that was because they were viewed negatively and most were dipped. Maybe an entrepreneur has figured that one out.

No one ever wants to hear bad news, but the fact remains that about a million 1916d dimes reside in collections in the US, while just over 200,000 were ever minted. It happens, like many said more than you think. Demand grows supply.

 

Good points... the line is crossed and walked upon at all levels. I just upgraded my morg 1895o from anacs40 to pcgs45... now the 40 is probably pcgs vf, but it has an honest gray tone,,, the 45 is obviously dipped, has some luster, but an overall bland white appearance with great detail. I like the anacs 40 better and am having a hard time deciding if I should keep it, or sell it and keep the upgrade train rolling..... btw, I've been looking for 95o and 95s upgrades for awhile,,, take a look yourself (at the EF to low AU range), and then tell me how many overly dipped and certified samples you find out there compared to ones that appear to have an honest tone to them....... my guess is you'll find 50 overly dipped samples to 1 nice honestly tone sample (and boy you'll pay for that honest sample).... oh well, the hunt continues.

 

Mike,

Based on your comments, it would seem that you believe that the AT coin doctors typically try to reproduce envelope and album toning. If that is true, what series of coins are the most likely targets for these coin doctors? The coins that traditionally drive the biggest premiums are common date bag toned Morgan Dollars which do not fall in that category. And just as the toning patterns for bag toned Morgan Dollars is distinctive, so are the toning patterns for Classic Commemoratives which also produce big premiums. That really only leaves the moderns that drive big premiums. So what do you think?

 

That's not quite an accurate summary of my belief. What I believe is that its harder for us to tell the difference between natural and artificial envelope/album toning because of the nature of the toning that results (i.e. the natural and artificial means both begin with the same intentional act), its easy to speed up the process artificially, and the resulting toning harder to distinguish as natural or artificial.

Said a bit more directly, album/envelope toning is easier to duplicate than, for instance, bag toning.

What series are the most likely targets for these coin doctors?

I would guess....The ones that are easy to duplicate, easy to get past PCGS/NGC, and the ones that drive the most profit and are easiest to sell.

The mine field here are the coins that are given a "silent upgrade" because of their either (a) their (artificial) toning/eye-appeal or (b) because the toning hides other problems that would normally make the coin grade down a point or two (the seated dollar above is a PERFECT example of this, and so are the blue IHCs that went from PCGS 64 to NGC 66!!!).

What do I think? Hmmm.

I think that Morgan bag toners are virtually unique and un-reproducable, at least for now, and that sets them apart. This is also priced into their premium. Heaven forbid this foundation of the toner market falls, because those coins have a long way to fall at 10x to 20x wholesale.

I think that I have been told by long time collectors of the series that tab toning has been duplicated, yet still they sell for large multiples. I don't follow the series nearly closely enough to comment in greater detail.

I think that collecting high-grade modern toners is too risky for my blood. Said a bit differently, I like paying more for the "coin" than the "toning". But that's clearly and obviously JUST ME, and that credo certainly limits the types of toners I collect.

 

p.s. I also just ordered, or am in the process of ordering, another toner.