1804 $5

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by 900fine, Dec 12, 2010.

  1. 900fine

    900fine doggone it people like me

    I haven't thrown down any eye candy in a while, so here we go. What the heck. Consignment coin, comments welcome.
     

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  3. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    Stunning piece, wow. Couldnt fathom that in my collection.
     
  4. K9coper

    K9coper Junior Member

    SWEET, SOME DAY after the Rolex
     
  5. kanga

    kanga 65 Year Collector

    This is a coin I'll never see in my collection.
    Okay, maybe when I'm dreaming.
    Very impressive.

    Is that a die crack on the reverse?
    For some reason I never think of gold coins with die cracks.
    Another first for me.
     
  6. mark_h

    mark_h Somewhere over the rainbow

    Wow - nice coin!
     
  7. lupinus911

    lupinus911 Member

  8. 900fine

    900fine doggone it people like me

    Yes, those are serious die cracks. This is a real workhorse reverse die, married to two obverse dies in 1803 and four in 1804 !

    This is the final use of the die, as the advancing die cracks ultimately split the die into three distinct pieces as the die cracks extend all the way north - south.

    This is a rare die variety - BD-6, r.5. There are an estimated 35 to 45 around. With an estimated survival rate of 1%*, that indicates perhaps 3500-4500* were coined. Even the earliest die states of this variety show advanced die breakage, so the mintage of 4000 or so indicates these dies held together in "old age".

    It's worth comparing that to 1790s dies and see how many coins (copper, silver, gold) were made from advanced die states.




    * Maybe more
     
  9. 900fine

    900fine doggone it people like me

    One of the things which distinguishes this die variety from others is the die line from the leaf tip at I2 to the R. You can see it in the pic.

    Interesting... that die line does not appear in the other five uses of this same die ! Clearly, Mint engravers did some work on this die to try to salvage it for one last production run. In so doing, they accidentally made that die scratch.
     
  10. 900fine

    900fine doggone it people like me

    Another interesting caveat... check out the date. The first three numerals 1, 8, and 0 are all double punched. As the 8 is the most obvious, this one has the nickname "Small 8 over Large 8". That's a misnomer, since it's actually a normal 8 over a large eight.

    Initially, they used the larger numeral 8 punch for the larger $10 eagles and silver dollars. They then came back and punched the proper size numeral over the larger one. As for the 1, it appears they had a broken serif punched and then came back with a proper one.
     
  11. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    Those coins are SOOOOO cool. I hope to own one someday. I'd be happy with a VG. lol
     
  12. mralexanderb

    mralexanderb Coin Collector

    A very impressive coin. The repunched numbers just give this coin some more of an interest factor. Might I inquire what this coin is worth?

    Bruce
     
  13. wow may i ask how much that goes for ?
     
  14. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins

    What? Ricky don't kiss and tell. :)

    Real looker there........
     
  15. mark_h

    mark_h Somewhere over the rainbow

    Not sure if that is a personal addition or a new addition, but you can http://www.900fine.com/coins.htm his website and see if it goes up for sale. He has some beauties for sale.
     
  16. 900fine

    900fine doggone it people like me

    My website is hopelessly out of date right now. We're doing some techno-changes to enable us to blast stuff up faster; the old method was just too time consuming. It's not possible to keep up using my current methods.
     
  17. 900fine

    900fine doggone it people like me

    There are many theories as to exactly what the heck was going on at the Mint.

    How do we resolve it ? How do we figure out what was happening ? Broadly speaking we have two types of clues. One is Mint records, the other is the coins themselves (which serve as "the fossil record"). The latter is much more helpful.

    On these early coins, Mint records are of marginal value. They kept zero written record of die varieties and anomalies, which were considered nuisances and obstacles to the manufacturing process. The main help we get from Mint records is memos 'twixt individuals and audit reports of precious metal coming in and coins delivered (date of delivery and quantity of coins). Here's the huge factor on that - the Mint records indicate that a certain number of coins were delivered on a certain date, but they do not mention the date on the coins themselves.

    As a famous example, records indicate 19,570 silver dollars were minted in 1804, but nowhere suggests they were dated 1804. They kept dies in service as long as possible (as this half eagle so eloquently illustrates). Given the extreme rarity of 1804 dollars, it seems reasonable to conclude the 1804 delivery were coins dated 1803 (or before). The dollars dated 1804 were restrikes made in 1834 and later.

    All of this gives the feel of a Sherlock Holmes adventure, which is one reason I'm so fascinated with early US coinage.
     
  18. 900fine

    900fine doggone it people like me

    Here's an interesting clue. The numerals 1, 8, and 0 are much larger than the 4. The underpunched 1 seems to be about the right size, as does the 0; both those numerals are punched too low. What was happening at the Mint, from a production / manufacturing / delivery of coin perspective ?
     
  19. 900fine

    900fine doggone it people like me

    This is incorrect.

    This is the only use of this reverse die B. This variety does exist with a perfect reverse die with no die cracks, clashes, or lapping.

    This is the second use of this obverse die #4. The first use was the exceedingly rare BD-5 (r.6).

    Since the BD-6 variety (OP coin) exists with perfect obverse, and the previous use of this obverse die resulted in a very rare coin, it seems clear the first use of the obverse die produced very few coins. Since we know of 15 specimens of BD-5, it seems reasonable to conclude the first use of obverse die produced 1500 or so coins - not enough to crack the obverse die (in this case).
     
  20. 900fine

    900fine doggone it people like me

    Here's another interesting trivia tidbit.

    Almost all US gold coins were struck from an alloy of 10% copper and 90% gold (900 fine). 9/10ths gold, 1/10th copper.

    These early pieces, however, were struck from 11/12ths gold (91.67%) and the rest copper and silver. I have never seen an exact ratio of the silver : copper mix.

    The fact that these very early gold coins contained silver sometimes gives them a lighter color than what we're used to with more modern (pre-1933) gold.
     
  21. 900fine

    900fine doggone it people like me

    Right now, it's better to hit us up on Collector's Corner (collectorscorner.com). Hit "dealers" and you'll find us. We'll get the website up to date early next year.
     
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