Grade this New Walker Pickup

Not really, it's mostly common sense. Dies are not and were not polished by hand. That is a fact and it is documented. There are several things that can cause raised lines in the devices of a coin. That is also a fact. A couple of things are metal flow, tool marks, a tiny piece of metal or grit of dirt getting caught in grease in the recesses of a die and then that die striking a coin. That grease then flows, the grit or piece of metal lightly scratches the surface of the die recess and the next coin struck has a raised line on the device. Or, a mint worker tries to clean the dirt and grease out of a die with a cloth, and in the process he lightly scratches the die recess.

Knowing all of this it is therefore foolish to assume that any raised line on the device of a coin was cause by die polishing. Even if you don't know how die polishing was done it is foolish to assume it. if you do know how die polishing was done, then you would know it could not cause raised lines on the devices.

 

Let me ask you a question - they were called that by whom ? Some other folks on a coin forum ?

You see that's the problem Paul. People read things on a forum and they believe it. Then they start doing it. And pretty soon you have a bunch of bad information that everyone believes to be true. The internet is full of bad information. It kind of goes back to something else I say all the time - accuracy in usage of terminology is extremely important in this hobby. This is a good example of why - because it leads people to believe something that just isn't true.

I'm not trying to be stubborn or just give people a hard time. I'm merely trying to present accurate information and get people to understand it so that they may further their education and better understand this hobby. You can't do that by allowing bad information to continue to be accepted as factual.

It's kind of like allowing somebody to think that the 1804 dollars were minted in 1804. Do you think for one second that the Class III dollars would be worth millions of dollars if the public had always understood how they came to be ? No, they wouldn't. They'd just be another of a long list of fantasy coins that sold for a few bucks each. But because of bad information that was fomented for decades and decades they now sell for millions.

Now imagine a collector sees a high dollar coin that has lines on it, but because he has always read that they are just "die polishing" lines and that is acceptable, he goes ahead and pays full price for that coin. It's the same thing.

But you go ahead and believe what you want, most people do. But for those few who are willing to listen, even if it's just one, then I have accomplished what I set out to do.

 

Without seeing the coin I have no idea how to explain it. But knowing what I know, I know they cannot be die polish lines. As I have said, there are nunerous ways for lines to get on a die besides die polishing. Just because raised lines are on a coin that doesn't mean they were cause by die polishing. And to call them that is an inaccuracy. People only call them that because they don't understand the minting process so they pick a term (a name that is convenient) and call them that when they don't know what the real answer is.

 

And if you read what it says right there Duke - "The letter from Leroy says, "Amazing die scratches in various directions above eagle's right foot to fill-in over polished TF!!"

Not die polishing !

edit to add pic -



By the way, I know the guy who owns that coin. He'll tell you the same thing I am.

 

It's pretty simple, die polishing is just what it sounds like. The die is polished typically to remove clash marks or excessive flow lines.

Die scrathes occur when somebody is working on the die trying to touch up details either by re-cutting or re-engraving. It entails somebody working on the die with hand tools, small & sharp metal cutting tools.

 

For me it always has been a terminology discussion. In this case both things are a type of damage (for lack of a better word) to the die itself. So of course they are going to be imparted to the coin. And that's all I have ever been trying to point out every time a similar discussion comes up. Calling any raised lines on a coin die polishing marks, when they obviously cannot be die polishing marks, is akin to calling a broadstruck coin a brockage or an off center strike when it just isn't.

 

Paul what you are suggesting is akin to just calling all types of coin errors - errors - instead of calling them what they are. You differentiate the various types of toning don't you ? There's target, album, envelope, tab, textile and probably a half dozen more. I've seen you correct many people when they call a certain type of toning by the wrong name. Is that splitting hairs ? Shall we just call them all - Oooooo look pretty ! - ? That's what you're suggesting here.

And you say I'm stubborn

What I am suggesting is that people do not call them what they are not ! There are names for these various "die condition lines". And if people don't know how to tell one from the other then they should learn. Just like they should learn the different types of toning so they can call them by their proper names.

 

Paul - if people knew how to tell the difference between the types of lines, or even knew that there was a difference, then the they would probably have a drastic impact on price too ! Ya ever think that might be why they just call them all die polishing lines when the coins are described in sale ads ?


edit - proper use of terminology is important in all aspects of this hobby. And you can't get away from it just for the sake of convenience or because of ignorance.

 

Paul - rather than having a positive effect, I was thinking more along the lines of it having a negative effect.

It isn't semantics. It's accurate use of terminology. Is it semantics to call tab toning, textile toning ? No of course not. Well it's not sematics to call die scratches die polishing lines either.