Somebody please humor me.

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Dimefreak, Nov 4, 2010.

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  1. Dimefreak

    Dimefreak Senior Member

    Because I dont want to hijack a "educational" thread
    I would love for somebody to explain to me how charcoal toning is damage even though it can be reversed. I for one feel anything that can be fixed naturally is not damage
    ie: A carbon spot will never go away, that is damage A hit can not be naturally fixed, that is damage.

    If somebody can sway me that would be so awesome.:yes:
     
    Dimefreak, Nov 4, 2010
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  3. acsf89

    acsf89 New Member

    let me try to humor you...

    "what is a ghost's favorite fruit????" the answer.......BOONANA...lol

    im not sure how to answer ur question but I just wanted to be silly=)

    -acsf89
     
    acsf89, Nov 4, 2010
    #2
  4. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    It's pretty easy to understand, it's because once the toning has reached the dark stage it has begun corroding the metal. And once the metal begins to corrode luster is lost.

    Now admittedly, the loss of luster adavances in degrees and in the beginning it is slight. But once that point is reached, it is just a matter of time until luster is completely gone.

    This is not an opinion either. These are facts.

    Speaking of facts, it is also a fact that the luster on one side of a coin has absolutely nothing to do with the luster on the other side of the coin. You can have booming luster on one side and dull, lifeless luster on the other side. The reason this is possible is because obv and rev dies are not changed at the same time. Most often they are changed at vastly different times. And new die will always result in much better luster being imparted to the coin than an old one will.
     
    GDJMSP, Nov 4, 2010
    #3
  5. Dimefreak

    Dimefreak Senior Member

    I need to see some sources, because I am seeing things with my own eyes that contradict everybody's feelings about black being the end all. fair enough about the luster, I could stand corrected. I just feel if a DMPL Morgan has plenty of toning on the obverse but the reverse can be read at 12 inches then the coin is DMPL. How does both sides become DMPL? Should TPG's start changing their stickers? For example 1884O $ MS64 OBV. DMPL
     
    Dimefreak, Nov 4, 2010
    #4
  6. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    No, they shouldn't start changing anything. Why they shouldn't start changing anything is because the standards for DMPL are quite specific. They state that both sides of the coin must meet the standards or else the coin is not DMPL.

    Now there can be a couple of different reasons for both sides not being DMPL. 1 - would be that one of the dies was changed out and the other not. Thus the new die could easily produce one side of the coin as DMPL while the older die would not. 2 - would be because the reflectivity on one side is reduced by toning. Reduce the reflectivity and the coin is no longer DMPL. 3 - would be that the coin was stored in a coin cabinet and the side against the velevet liner became degraded over the years from sliding back and forth on the velvet for decades, thus the reflectivity is reduced and the coin is no longer DMPL because of that.

    There are yet more ways as to how it could happen, but all that matters is that it did happen. If the reflectivity on both sides of the coin do not meet the standard then the coin is not DMPL. Plain and simple.
     
    GDJMSP, Nov 4, 2010
    #5
  7. Dimefreak

    Dimefreak Senior Member

    ok like I said I have little knowledge in respects to the minting process....lets talk about something I have some more knowledge in.....wheres the sources?
     
    Dimefreak, Nov 4, 2010
    #6
  8. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Sources for what ? And discuss what else ? All I did was answer your questions.
     
    GDJMSP, Nov 4, 2010
    #7
  9. Dimefreak

    Dimefreak Senior Member

    Where are you getting your information about black coins?
     
    Dimefreak, Nov 4, 2010
    #8
  10. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    This thread by Jason (physics-fan3.14) should answer all your questions. The passage I like most is:


    Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t84670/#ixzz14LWdsCv0

    He provides a list of references at the bottom of the page and I am sure that if you PM him, he will tell you where to find them.
     
    Lehigh96, Nov 4, 2010
    #9
  11. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    From 50 years of experience, from probably over 1,000 various articles written about it over the years in numerous coin mags, and more books than I can even remember.

    Now you say that you have never dipped a coin. So what are you basing your opinion about this on ?
     
    GDJMSP, Nov 4, 2010
    #10
  12. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Since it seems I in part started this, I will tell you unequivicably Dimefreak that matte black "toning" is in every sense damage. You are lucky to have it only destroy the luster, most of the time it will be pitted and completely ungradeable. If it is glossy black, then usually there is no serious damage, maybe the luster is somewhat impaired but usually not horribly. However, most coins have a very limitied amount of luster which is lowered each time you dip it. I have seen original coins with glossy black toning look nice after dipping, other ones, still original, have an impaired, (overdipped), look. It will vary on the glossy black toned coins.

    I only have 30 years experience, not 50 like Doug, but have read the articles, I have dipped these coins, I have seen many more dipped by others, and I have seen retoned coins that were retoned simply to hide this same damage. I have seen master retoners make such a pretty coin most probably would not be able to tell. This is why even though I love toned coins, bought them for 20 years when they were thought of as inferior, I am very nervous about paying extra for them since I have seen with my own eyes retoned coins just as attractive if not more so than ones posted on the other thread. Not Ebay gaudy colors, but attractive, rainbow subdued beauties, greens, blues, etc.

    Doug and I are trying to tell you we have DONE THIS, personally, with our own hands on real coins. Heck I can tell by the color that the dipping solution turns how bad the damage on the coin surface will be, if it turns chalky you know there is surface damage immediately. If you have not done this personally, I do not understand why you do not believe us. I seriously am just trying to help, I do not buy or sell these, and could care less how much anyone wants to value them.

    Chris
     
    medoraman, Nov 4, 2010
    #11
  13. snaz

    snaz Registry fever

    Would this toning include the solid grey, gross toning that is an effect of being stored in those little paper envelopes?
    If so, would that mean it would be safe to say that the toning on those coins was once colorful, but has now passed that point, and it is now venturing into the damaging charcoal toning?
     
    snaz, Nov 4, 2010
    #12
  14. raider34

    raider34 Active Member

    This is one of the best references I've read on toning: Toned Coins
     
    raider34, Nov 4, 2010
    #13
  15. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    If by that you mean toning like this - what I call gun metal grey. Then there is little chance that such a coin would turn black. Once toned like that, you have little to worry about a slong as you store the coin properly. The reason you have little to worry about is because that gun metal grey toning is protecting the coin from toning further.

    As a matter of fact, once a coin is toned pretty much any color, except very dark brown or black, and you store it properly, then it will not continue to tone. Or at least it will tone so slowly that you won't have to worry about it in your lifetime.

    But make note, this type of toning, like on this coin I am posting, is not what the others are calling charcoal toning.
     

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    GDJMSP, Nov 4, 2010
    #14
  16. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    And in case you are wondering, Sunnywood is "THE EXPERT" when it comes to toned coins. My guess is that even Doug, who abhors the use of the word expert, will not dispute Sunnywood's expertise on the subject.
     
    Lehigh96, Nov 4, 2010
    #15
  17. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I'll say this much Paul, they are several others who lay claim to being THE EXPERT when it comes to toned coins. While some of them are quite knowedgeable on the subject, some are as wrong as they can get. I've yet to see even 1 where I agree with everything they say or purport to be true.
     
    GDJMSP, Nov 4, 2010
    #16
  18. Dimefreak

    Dimefreak Senior Member

    `
     
    Dimefreak, Nov 4, 2010
    #17
  19. Dimefreak

    Dimefreak Senior Member

    Alright, I dont even know where to start. I guess for starters people should read my post' and realize I am not dipping coins. I completely understand that coins that are entirely black are damaged. The coin in question was this one.
    [​IMG]

    Apparently nobody believes that coins with rainbow toning coins or coins with any type of color and gray or black can naturally reverse the black or gray coloring. I have done it plenty of times but most recently with a coin I purchased from a well respected member here. Around the first of the year when I plan to send some consignments along with coins I wast photographed I will re-visit this thread with proper photos of what the coin looks like and is graded now (Both significantly different).

    As for those that keep claiming I have beef with the Grand Pupa. Quite honestly I could careless about what he does. To me he is an average Joe. If I was not so deeply invested into the Rainbow toned market I might be fooled into thinking his medioker coins were the holy grail. The fact is I dont even rank him in the top ten as far as toning goes and I have only see about a handful of coins of his I would add to my collection. Some might say ok well you guys have different taste, but the fact remains Paul has extreme knowledge on the topic. I say in some cases Paul is an out standing source of information, but then he does something silly like compare his coin (top) with another (bottom) with the quote "I have a walker that looks very much like the coin"
    I have a walker that looks very much like the coin

    Pauls
    http://s334.photobucket.com/albums/m424/FBbreaker/?action=view&current=Lehighs.jpg

    Distrupeks
    [​IMG]

    Seriously Paul? Those coins are not even in the same neighborhood. Now Im not claiming to be perfect. But I think we can all agree the differences between theses coins are the differences between a carbon spotted paper weight and the staple of most collections. So if your wondering if I am a follower of Pauls? NO! Am I impressed with his coins? Not in the least!

    So now would somebody please like to answer the question? And give me causable reason to believe. Because remember I have witnessed with my own eyes this exact "Phenomenon" numerous times.
     
    Dimefreak, Nov 4, 2010
    #18
  20. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I'd still like to know what the question is for sure ?

    If I understand this comment correctly you are saying that you have managed to get, or at the least seen, the gray or black color on a toned coin to turn into some other color. Is that correct ?

    If it is, I'd sure like you to post before and after pics of when this happened. Because quite frankly, I don't believe it.

    Now what I will believe as being true is this. A dark grey or black coin can be dipped to remove the dark grey or black toning. The coin can then either be retoned, or tone on its own to a different color or colors. That is possible.

    But for the black to just to magically revert to another color - unh uh - aint gonna happen. Ever !
     
    GDJMSP, Nov 5, 2010
    #19
  21. lincolncent

    lincolncent Future Storm Chaser Guy

    Never and always are two words you should always remember never to use.
    I know what Dimefreak is talking about. My great-grandfather bought me an SAE when I was born in 1991. It sat in a plastic case untouched for 10+ years. When I found it it had this ugly black toning around the edges. I left it in the case and pulled it out years later when I actually started collecting (when I was around 13/14), and the black had turned purple (a pretty purple, not that ugly stuff). While that isn't as dramatic as going from black to rainbow, it is possible for black toning to reverse when presented with different environmental conditions. Unfortunately I do not have pics to prove it but I know its possible.
    Thanks,
    Tyler
    P.S. I have been intrigued enough that I am going to begin researching this subject. I will post my findings (if any) as soon as I find them.
     
    lincolncent, Nov 5, 2010
    #20
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