Pricey toned Morgan...

oh.. I didn't notice your link in the reply you posted...

You had me thinking I had a fever. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjsUf_oIgp0

I saw the other's too (in the same heritage auction),, nice coins,,, but I've already said that I consider any toner at 2x premium high,, and would only go to 5x for the very best knock down toner..... so yeah, I consider the those excessive also... and would rather eat crow and play the cow bell.. My inlaws are from bayou country, and I figure I've already eaten stuff in gumbo that I probably don't want to know about,, a lil' ol' crow couldn't be any worst ; )


BTW, just looked at that thread..... nice coin you have there,,, not being a smart as*, but would you have paid 10x premium for it for the toning ?

 

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I suspect these have quite a bit yet to go.

Excessive? Clearly not in the eyes of the high bidder.

 

Wow...lots of posts since I last took a look...

Let me take a moment to clear up a few things....

#1 I have been collecting coins since I believe 1991 or there abouts and joined the old PCGS forums priar to the cutover in Feb of 2001.

#2 I jumped into toned coins extensively at the end of 2004 and was a founding member of the TCCS as of Jan 2005. At that point I would have been considered new to toners but by 2007 when I sold my first collection due to divorce I would say that I was as well versed in toned coins as folks who had collected for many decades. I don't do anything half way so I spoke with dealers and collectors who had been in the hobby for many decades before me and I looked at thousands of coins in those first few years and I came to be able to recognize NT from AT, historical storage methods and how coins in those storage vessels tone, propertise of toning (silver sulfide, natural color progression) etc at a very high level of expertise.

#3 Since 2007 I have remained dedicated to toned coin collecting and education and have literally seen just about every type of toned coin....the good and the bad in both person and in online venues like Heritage/Ebay.

#4 I don't consider myself the afore most authority on toned coins..I know many dealers who have far more experience like say Mike defalco, however I do consider myself a subject matter expert on toned coins and I rarely find myself stumped by any question thrown at me. I agree with lehigh that I don't believe a degree in metalergy is necessary to truly be in expert in coins or more specifically toned coins but again....I won't lable myself an expert...just highly competent when it comes to all things toned.

#5 for this discussion I believe being a part time dealer of coins on and off since 1997 on Ebay...not just the last year as was stated.....has giving me a chance to buy and sell tens of thousands of coins and I think only a moron would not pick up a lot of advanced knowledge on the subject over that many years of being neck deep in coins.

#6 for those who have posted favorible comments about me or my talents surrounding toned coins...I say thank you and I consider many of those same folks to be extremely knowledgable on the subject as well.

#7 for those who do not think I know what I am talking about or who are not impressed with my background credintials...I say fair enough....I for one will not lose any sleep over it and I respect your right to think whatever you want to think about me. My ultimate goal is to help rid the hobby of the AT garbage out there...it is not to present myself as the next coming of David Hall

 

after this statement we will have to stop calling you the oracle with immediate affect

 

well sinc eia m going to get a few questions anyway i am going to preempt them right here sinc ei am not able to devote time to questions as much as i would like

there is no such thing as one person knowing everything about coins GD couldnt grade indian coins if his life depended on it but having said that he is the best so far by a wide margin for european gold and us coins.

I have my inner circle of trusted coin advisors whom i talk to before i buy. if you are looking to invest serious money in coins develop your inner circle getting responses from everyone without you knowing how much they know is just silly it could lead to blind following the blind

i will also take this moment to thank the 4 pillars of the spock collection some great individuals ( including one half crazy grandpa) without whom the spock collection would not be what it is today.

lets go strike coins weekly

 

He has a total of six running in this auction....

 

I found these three by looking through the Heritage Auction Catalog. I did not see any other toners of this magnitude. Do you have links/lot #'s to the other two coins?

 

Here are the others, will add images next:

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1145&Lot_No=10526

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1145&Lot_No=10597

 

And the images of the last 2....

 

:thumb:Very nice!
:kewl:but do wonder if all the older slabbed toners would pass Pcgs new coin sniffer test.

 

These coins would, IMO. No brainer NT coins, all of them.

 

I agree, have seen many old folders with this exact toning. You put natural silver in those old holders and the obverses get toned like this. That is the problem though, isn't it? Put some silver coins in sulfur infused holders, (like almost all older type books), especially in a humid environment, wait 5-10 years, and they are toned this way. To me, this just makes paying high premiums JUST for the toning too risky, at least for me.

To all of you who love toning, great. Doug and I just are simply pointing out this inherent danger. Everyone likes to think their market is now different, that "the game has changed", and it will never go back to the way it was. That may or may not be true, I have just lived in too many reversals, and read about many others, to trust that "this time it is different", that this time the high multiples will ALWAYS continue. That is just what Doug and I point out. If you like a coin, great, I am happy for you. I am simply worried if you are spending "investment" money on high multiples for these, just like I worry the same if you bought MS70's, colorized coins on HSN, or many other avenues of numismatics I am not sure are on solid ground financially. If you buy for your enjoyment, and not worried about a return, I could see many people paying high prices for toned coins, as they are pretty.

If, as some say, I am part of the "problem" not listening to explanations of WHY toned coins will forever more be worth such premiums, then I am sorry. I simply disagree, and I do not think 5 to 10 years of history is proof that it will continue to be so. Many aspects of this hobby lasted longer than that, but didn't continue forever. I respect all of you toned enthusiasts here, Shane, Dimefreak, CPM, and especially Lehigh as I have enjoyed learning why you value the market how you do and reading your posts. Doug is direct, I usually try to be less so, but I think we are just the "old guard" warning of changing grades and premiums that CAN change in a heartbeat. In this forum its not just the contributors, also the readers who may be less experienced, and I think such warnings and things to think about are appropriate.

 

Well said...
Maybe just me, but I am seeing more, and more, and more monstor toners in 1st tier slabs on the market. The world is full of smart folks, and with these premium's the business case for manufacturing these toners becomes a heck of a motivation. I think we can all agree that folks are out the producing toned coins, and are also having "some" success and getting them slabbed... and making money on it. Sooner or later the suppy will outstrip the demand, bake in a bit of bad economic times, and anyone "investing" in toners will realize a nice loss.... anyone who doesn't care about the money will be o.k....

 

Really, A No Brainer?
I could not go that far I dont think.

 

I could.

 

Without knowing the details or history of the tone,, how ?

 

Yes. Each of us usually makes assessments of coins and their attributes (including toning or lack thereof), without the benefit of knowing their history.

It comes down to making an educated guess, based on our experience and level of "education".

 

Really? You've seen coins like this in folders?



Because that's a bag-toned coin. Perhaps someone put a coin in a folder that looked like this, but you will NEVER see a coin toned in an album that looks like this (unless someone puts a piece of mint bag in the folder with it).

A "no brainer NT bag-toned Morgan", as one of my mentors would call it (which I was alluding to in a prior post).

I would make the same warning for ANY coin, toned or untoned. Bullion or numismatic. They are all risky. The thinner the market, the more risky.

I think all of us, including the most staunch toning enthusiasts, agree with the warnings, and I don't think anyone would suggest that toning will ALWAYS carry a premium. I know I would never suggest such a thing.

Respectfully...Mike

 

You are not the only one....but I'm not sure your concern is well-founded for the coins that are the subject of this thread...yet...

If the doctors ever figure out how to copy coins like the ones in this thread, the whole house of cards will come tumbling down as bag-toned morgans are the keystone of the "10x+ guide" toner market, IMO.

However, and to the best of my knowledge, there are no good copies of these coins (i.e. bag toned morgans).

It is about the only segment of the toner market that this can be said, IMO. It's also part of the reason these coins sell for the premium that they do (the other two reasons are that (a) the coins are a part of the most popular series, and (b) they are common enough to be available to a large number of collectors) -- again IMO.