Pricey toned Morgan...

Okay, for all of you who say, "It's nice, but not fot that kind of money.", would you be saying that if you were a multimillionaire?

Chris

 

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Yes, I would.... and I really like toned coins,, in fact I'd prefer a nicely toned coin vs. a blast white of the same date any day..... but I refuse to be foolish with my money, and IMO, paying that level of a premium is stupid money management. But as has been said, if I did equate money to toilet paper, then maybe I'd go for it.... Personnally, of the multi-millionaire's I do know, none hold that opinion of thier money... In fact, they tend to squeeze the crap out of every nickel,,, even more so than the working sled dogs I know who endevor to become thier peer.... hummmm....

As to comments:
#1 - I don't know how to tone coins like that... However I have a strong feeling many do,,, exacting details on how to do so have been published on the forum. Knowing these samples "can" be manufactured is another reason I refuse to pay ultra premium's for them,,, although I "will" still pay some premium.. a bit.
#2 - I seriously doubt this coin presents these color patters in hand and in a normally lit room (not some dark drab place),, in a normally lit room. Take a look at all the pics posted in the auction yourself,,, now compare those pics posted by heritage vs. the pics posted by the OP.... my guess is that the coin in hand and in normal light, or even well lit spaces, will look much more like heritage's pics than those presented in the thread.... as most toners to.
#3 - ok
#4 - there are 10 auctions on ebay right now that will sell above $5k,, buyers with cash and a willingness to depart from it are out there.... they always are. My opinion is that most monied toner enthusiasts have realized that the $ game is overdone for toners. just my opinion...
#5 - your returns are probably rooted in exactly what I've described..... when someone posts a monstor toner, many people believe this is what the coin looks like in hand and in normal light..... what they often will get is a coin that is heavily gray and black'ish in hand with only a hint of color underneath,, the neon color only is exposed in direct sunlight, or other high intensity lighting.... it's simply a matter of expectations set by a photo and digested by a consumer under the wrong assumptions.... I'm sure some buyers who have not see many of these neon toners do not understand that the color in the pictures of them are essentially enhanced by the lighting... It would be interesting to see toner sellers post two pictures of each toner they sell,, one under high intensity lighting, and one under normal light (or even high light, like the heritage pics).
- I sure heritage does not illustrate thier coins in poor lighting,,, take a look at this coin in heritage's pic, it probably is a better illustration of what this coin looks like in a normal or high light environment.
- still a very attractive and beautiful coin...

 

In reply to your five points above:

1) People claim that coins can be artificially toned to look like that, but I don't believe it. Of course we don't have any way of knowing for certain, unless someone does it and shows us - a highly unlikely scenario.

2) I saw the coin in hand yesterday, and it looked nearly identical to how it does in the image. That was with the benefit of a single incandescent light in a lighted room - no extreme lighting conditions were involved.

3) I'm OK with your OK

4) I have heard predictions about the bottom of the toned coin market falling out for many years. Maybe the prognosticators will be right eventually, but thus far, they have been badly mistaken.

5) In some cases that is correct, but in many others, not. And what you said could be applied to other, non-color premium coins, as well.

I view most Heritage sales, and have done so for many years. It has been my experience, that more times than not, their images make the coins look worse (not better) and less colorful/attractive, than they really are in person.

 

I get what you mean here. I will add the image was taken straight on, not at an angle. I do not like shooting coins at an angle because I believe that is not always a true look of the coin.

The heritage image and the image I posted are the same shot. Mine may look less bright partly due to it being a jpg for the web and low resolution. The heritage were the full image, no compression.

 

Nobody locally believes that the toning on this coin is real, if its AT I would sure like to meet the guy that did it.

 

I couldnt agree more!

 

The Roosevelt Dime certianly looks natural to me.

 

It's kind of moot. One man's dreck will always be another man's treasure.

 

If mark has seen it in hand and states the coin looks very much like the image then you can take that to the bank as he has no financial motives to say so.

I still can't believe in this day in age...with a hobby as big as coins....we still have collectors who feel like putting down what others want to spend their money on......bahabully "but I refuse to be foolish with my money, and IMO, paying that level of a premium is stupid money management"

Please feel free to call me a stupid money manager

 

If I was truly biased towards toned coins then I would do everything I could to put down untoned coins...to tell everyone how all untoned coins are dipped, and how stupid folks are for wasting their money on white widgets.....that's the bias I am referring too...you can have a preference...heck you can have an opinion.....but to throw a collecting segment of this hobby under the bus with the type of statements/comments made is reckless to say the last and I see it every day on the forums. I of course am glad we live in a country where folks can make such statments whether I agree with them or not.

 

Krypto,, you are totally reading malice where there is none... If my best friend on earth was sitting next to me at the watering hole and I knew he was bidding on this coin, then I'd slap him on the back, call him a sucker with a big smile and buy him a beer. That's just how I am,,, blunt in stating my opinion I guess.
I also already said that I prefer toners to white, so why would I try to dog the segment ?
I've also already said that if Mike says this coin glows in hand under ambient show room light, then I believe it to worth a premium to me also.
I still wouldn't go 10x,,, but more than my standard max of 2x for a toner.... maybe 5x, if it really really knocked me down.
Even you would have to agree that paying an excessive premium for a toner is "stupid".... or would you call someone paying $100,000 for a 1964 half dollar (most monstor toner on the planet), a sound financial decision ?
I guess my quesion to you would be: Q.- In your opinion, assuming a coin meets your definition of "monstor toner", what premium should one expect to pay ? Looking for a guide or book value that readers of the forum can actually apply in the real world here,,, please no "whatever it's worth to you" stuff ; )

 

I am not point any fingers.We need to agree to disagree

Everyone has there own options on Morgan Dollar.but one thing WE All must do is be Civil.

 

Sorry but there is not a guide:dead-horse:

 

Ditto, but people can spend what they like. Think about it, we are all pretty stupid for paying anything above melt value for anything we collect, so some people have different tastes. I would just agree with Doug that such a premium is very dangerous considering how market tastes change. You do not have to believe me, but I am 100% sure, after being around numismatics for 30 years, that the market taste will change and toned coins will no longer be the "hot" items. If you spend this kind of premium for colored coins, I just hope it is for your own enjoyment, and not counting on that premium staying the same forever. Remember, it used to be a 10 to 20% DEDUCTION for any toning.

 

I swear you guys crack me up..... If somebody wants the coin how are they suppose to get it without paying the price? Are you suggesting they steal it?

 

Doug and I, (I think I am talking for Doug), are just saying paying such a premium is out of the norm historically, and we have seen such multiples in the past go up to such heights just to simply disappear. That is what we are warning.

Its your money, like I said do what you like. We are just trying to help and put some coin history perspective in the discussion, especially to any new collectors. If a coin is worth $4000 to you, you can afford it and it makes you happy, then God's speed and I am happy for you.

My apologies if I misrepresented anything you would say Doug.

Chris

 

As said there are no guide values and although pricing is based solely on what someone is willing to pay...folks in the market for a number of years can get a very good feel for what coins like this are worth on the open market. The original coin that started this thread appears to me to be about a $4,000 coins based on what I have seen similar coins bring over the past 5 years. In 2005 I would estimate the coin would have been worth probably in the neighborhood of $6000 and I say that without having any sales history on the coin. I don't have $4000 to drop on the coin but if I had millions in the bank it would be a no brainer for me.

I think what gets lost in these discussions is the fact that most established toned coin collectors...(those with a few years under their belt) DO NOT BUY TONERS for investment purposes. They simply see a coin that lights a fire under them and they decide they must have it and what they are comfortable spending. How much they would spend is in direction proportion to their bank account...nothing more and nothing less.

I have said for many years that there is a sense of freedom for toned coin collectors (not investors) because we are not slaves to price guides. We pay what we feel like paying and we feel good about that so I have no illusions that everyone in this hobby will feel the same way or understand the price levels we are willing to climb too for that certain coin that's all there for us. What I have hoped for a number of years is that we can come to a common ground when it comes to how we spend our money. There is no reason what so ever for me to call it stupid when people collect untoned coins, or Ike dollars or shield nickels...I just wouldn't do it even if those were the very last coin I would add to my collection. I am very comfortable with people collecting what they like and if someone wants to spend $300 for a MS70 ASE....more power to them. It is for that reason that I have such a hard time when I see constant comments from educated folks talking about how crazy or stupid it is for folks to spend their money on high dollar high premium toners. I don't think the collectors shelling out these premiums are stupid in the least...I think purchasing what you like should be the most important aspect of the hobby. When you get all caught up in the pricing and investment side of the hobby then collecting ceases to be fun….you should be using disposable income and not grocery money so spending $200 on a $50 coin because it has the right color should be completely up to the individual….you know …it should be fun

Folks that collect untoned coins seem to pull out a price guide to figure out what they are willing to pay (I have seen it at shows hundreds of times)....folks that go after toners in a lot of cases don't even look at the grade on the label when deciding to purchase a coin....honest? It's secondary to the eye appeal and regardless of whether I have made a killing when selling coins from my collection or taken a bath.....I always felt good about my purchases and I was always sad to see the coins go.