In my never ending quest for rainbow toned Peace Dollars, I have discovered an interesting phenomenon. It seems that there is a batch of 1924 Peace Dollars that exhibit similar dark rainbow toning. Please see the following examples: https://www.scoins.com/ViewLot.aspx?LotId=21421 http://islandcoins.com/peace/peace_1924pngcms63_259868-039.htm http://islandcoins.com/peace/peace_1924spcgsms64_21430296.htm http://islandcoins.com/peace/peace_1924pngcms65_314573-045.htm http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=328&Lot_No=9012 http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=328&Lot_No=9010 http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=328&Lot_No=9007 Does anyone know the origination or history of this 'group' of coins?
I don't know the history behind those coins but I can tell you that these are exactly the type of coins that prompted David Hall to make the comments that he did on the subject.
While they are the same date, I am not sure they would necessarily be a "group". Looks like original roll toning to me. While Morgans were stored in bags primarily, these coins got distributed earlier in their life and rolled up at banks. Since the silver was "fresher" and most of the old rolls were cheap, sulfur impregnated paper, this happened a lot. I was at an auction of an old dealer, (man this was an auction for the ages, 8 days worth of accumulation over 2 months), and there were rolls upon rolls like this of these dollars. A common date like this basically went for melt, with better dates of course higher. They were wrapped similarly and looked like these coins you have shown when opened. Back then this was a bad thing, and the auctioneer acknowledged that their "condition" made them less than desirable, but they were in fact uncirculated. I would wager that most of those were dipped by now, but some weren't apparently. I honestly cannot remember if I bought any, if I did they are in my junk silver bank box. Just generic thoughts, maybe knows of a certain roll entering the market recently.
What comments? Did he think they were AT? Edit: It would be interesting since at least a couple of these I would consider the toning outright damage, meaning it looks like the black would be deep enough to erode the surface layer. If people are AT this deep, its really a sad state.
I may acquire one, with the intent on getting some surface analysis done, to solve this perplexing riddle.
Yes, he went so far as to say that as far as he was concerned that any rainbow toned Peace dollar was AT.
What a crazy man. I will state I have personally opened up rolls, back when toning was a bad thing, and seen Peace dollars like this. The ends ended up black on the side facing the paper, but the center coins looked like this. Many of us saw them, and the discussion was whether they were "too far gone" to save via dipping, (and thus off to the smelter), or salvagable meaning no surface damage once dipped. You must have seen these old rolls as well Doug. This "toning" was attributed to paper rolls, fresh silver, and a humid environment. Sometimes the paper even stuck to the coin surface. You do not see it on Morgans as much, but on Peace dollars to me its common for original coins. David Hall can call me a liar all he wants. If people are intentionally trying to replicate this toning, which like I said on a couple is borderline damage, then I am a sad puppy.
Yes, I have heard of these coins.... There are a group of coins that look like this in NGC holders that start with 3144xx and 3145xx in MS 63 to MS 65 grades and all from 1924 (see the 3 HA auctios for pics of the holders). They came to market at the same time, and the story goes they are all AT. It appears, from the first group of coins posted above, that some of these coins have made their way into newer NGC and PCGS slabs. In 2007, I had one of them in my possession, on approval from a dealer. I sent the coin back, and it is pictured below: One of the members of the PCGS forums (whose name escapes me at the moment) had a great deal of info on this group of coins and was convinced they were AT (the story was they were found in a leather pouch, as I recall). I can only speak to the coin I had in my own two hands, and it didn't appear like any naturally-toned (or roll-toned) coin I've seen before, much less any other peace dollars. Respectfully....Mike p.s. I am not calling anyone a liar, I am only sharing what I've seen and read about this particular "hoard" of coins.
Yours I do not know Leadfoot. I was thinking more like: http://islandcoins.com/peace/peace_1...259868-039.htm which was posted earlier. To me this is damage and not attractive. This matt black toning I cannot believe anyone would want, but it occurs when a coin is improperly, (very improperly) stored. EDIT: My link not working, its link number two in OP post.
Good point! Compare the look of that coin to the ones on HA and the coin I posted above: \ The coin Melo is talking about: The Island coin (and the one immediately preceding it) has a very different look than the coin I posted, and the rest of the coins. It's dark, almost black near the edges, and does appear to be more natural looking like something that would come out of a roll. The slab number 2598xx predates the 3144xx-3145xx slabs also, suggesting this coin has been in a slab a bit longer than the hoard in question.
Now, take a look at this (reholdered) coin also on Island: It appears this is from the original (AT?) hoard, and has been reholdered. The original coins were in an NGC holder without the line, as shown here: http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=328&Lot_No=9007 Since the numbers match the earlier coins, it suggests this coin was reholdered.
The Island Coins are probably good. If it is the same company, the owner, Gary, a very young guy, died a year or so ago. I knew him fairly well, and he was a nut on colored coins.
Saw a couple of these today at the Whitman show. Caught my eye because you so rarely see Peace dollars toned like such.
I just started collecting peace dollars and it seems like I have looked at a couple hundred in hand but have not seen anything toned like these. I will go back and talk to a couple of my main coin dealers I visit and talk to them about.
I had the intention of building a rainbow toned Peace Dollar collection but I found the endeavor to be incredibly difficult and every toned coin was basically a land mine. David Hall has personally affected the market acceptability line for these coins and determining which slabbed coins would be market acceptable is virtually impossible. All of the coins that we are discussing in this thread would not be market acceptable IMO. The colors are strange. Their appearance is peculiar. And most of them are not even that attractive. After abandoning my rainbow toned goal, I changed my goal to include any Peace Dollar that I found attractive no matter if it was blast white, monochromatic, or rainbow toned. Here is what the collection looks like. Of course the 1922 is the most attractive IMO, and I doubt this coin would even be market acceptable in today's market.
Well the ones I was posting about you rarely will see any anymore. They were found this way from original sources, but for most of collecting history they would quickly get a dip to remove the unsightly toning. If the underlying coin was damaged it was most likely melted at that point. Rememebr toning was bad, so every dealer after buying coins like this would turn around and dip them to make money. This is why you normally will not see this anymore. I was just relaying my experience of seeing hundreds, (at least) of rolls of these long ago, and the matt black toned ones look JUST like them, especially Peace dollars which seemed susceptible to this type of toning for some reason.
