2009 Proof A.S.E. now on sale

Interesting debate. I see Coin World, in today's issue, has an article on the Carr 1964-d Peace Dollar.

 

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Actually he would because that would be illegal under yet another law which makes it illegal to deface US currency in such a way as to render it unfit to be reissued. (Note this law refers to currency ONLY, not the coinage. So your little projects do not run afoul of that one.)

 

Do you have the actual number of that statute - I've never heard of any laws relating to "unfit to be reissued" ?
The government doesn't care if you burn up a $100 bill because then they can print another one to replace it (and "pocket the profit").

 

Defacement of Currency

Defacement of currency is a violation of Title 18, Section 333 of the United States Code. Under this provision, currency defacement is generally defined as follows: Whoever mutilates, cuts, disfigures, perforates, unites or cements together, or does any other thing to any bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt issued by any national banking association, Federal Reserve Bank, or Federal Reserve System, with intent to render such item(s) unfit to be reissued, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

Defacement of currency in such a way that it is made unfit for circulation comes under the jurisdiction of the United States Secret Service. The United States Secret Service web address is www.secretservice.gov.

Taken from the U. S. Treasury B. E. P. website at: http://www.moneyfactory.gov/historicallegislation.html

Read the U. S. Code here: http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t17t20+306+0++%28%29%20%20AND%20%28%2818%29%20ADJ%20USC%29%3ACITE%20AND%20%28USC%20w%2F10%20%28333%29%29%3ACITE%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20

 

I believe that applies to paper currency and notes, rather than coins. You should refer to section 331 instead.

The keyword here is fraudulently. Intent and fraud mean almost everything, and I don't believe Mr. Carr is fraudulently deceiving people with these overstruck eagles. The only thing that seems gray and questionable to me is the creation of such dies, just because incidentally, they will resemble that of a business strike American Silver Eagle.

 

Jerms, Mr. Carr asked a question and I was answering. We were talking about currency, read above posts. I believe we have conceded that Mr. Carr is within his rights to produce his product. Personally, I would be nervous about possession of these dies. Unless they are different from full coin dies. If they are full dies, what is to prevent the striking of your own ASE's from generic silver rounds or planchets? Just curious.

 

My bad, I should have made sure I knew what I was responding about. I agree about being nervous with the dies as well. There really isn't much preventing you from striking your own when you have such quality dies. Obviously I don't believe he'd test his waters there. I just don't see how it's legal to possess such a die because of the fact that it is incidentally similar to that of a business strike silver eagle.

 

No, I'm certinly not striking Silver Eagles on anonoymous blanks - I'm only striking over existing genuine 2009 Silver Eagles without adding or removing any metal. Regarding the question about posession of dies - the Hobby Protection Act specifically allows coin replicas to be made and sold - and this implies that molds or dies in the likeness of US coins are legal to posess, since they would be required to make such a copy.

 

Interesting...

"with intent to render such item(s) unfit to be reissued"

That seems vauge. Defacing a bollar bill by stamping "Where's George" on it does not render the bill unfit to be reissued. What changes would make it unfit for re-issue ? What if you took a $100 and completely burned it. The government shouldn't care - they could issue another one to replace it (and pocket the "profit").

 

How can you prove once the coin has been struck that it was indeed made from an existing ASE? Is there evidence of the original strike? Same with the Peace dollars, can you see (for example) the actual date shadowed underneath the new date, or do we just have to take your word for it that they were struck from authentic coins?

 

Actually it does. The Where's George website originally sold "Where's George" rubber stamps so people could stamp their notes. The Secret Service came down on them and made them stop selling them because they claimed it encouraged the defacement of the notes. They stopped selling the stamps and they don't encourage people to mark their notes and the Secret Service left them alone.

On the pictures of the ASE that have been shown you can see the undertype. I haven't seen an undertype on the 64-D peace dollars pictures but you may still be able to see it.

His pieces are perfectly legal under Section 331

In fairness I did point out earlier that the Hobby Protection Act and Sec 487 of Title 18 are in conflict with each other. The HPA allows you to make copies which means you need to be able to make the dies, but Sec 487 makes it illegal to make or possess the dies.

Since the HPA is actually I believe a regulation while Sec 487 is a statute. If push came to shove and the government wanted to get you I think Sec 487 would be the one that would prevail if they actually decided to take someone to court over it.

Edit. I was wrong the HPA is also a statue so that leaves it up in the air as to which statue a court would chose to uphold.

 

If folks would simply not purchase this crap, debates,lawsuits and all that nonsense would not be the concern it seems to be. I personally simply isolate myself from watching that stuff. Trust me, none of these offerings will ever amount to being accepted by the Numismatic Community as " Rare" . If you care to spend a couple of hundred dollars or even less on some Rare stuff, Counter-stamped coins, tokens and medals is a good place for that. Now there you will find some historical , scarce and rare items without spending huge amounts of money . IMHO

 

Hey Mike: Maybe they come with a COI...certificate of inauthenticity. TC

 

I'd just like to know how you can tell what coin it was originally, other than to take Mr. Carr's word for it.

 

On some of the coins, the parent coins image is faintly visible. Not all, but some.

 

If the parent coin is visible, I have a bit less of a problem. If they are unable to be determined, there is no way to prove who made the "host" coin, and that is a HUGE set-back for Mr. Carr's chances of legally making these largely because it makes his claims of having used a genuine SAE or Peace Dollar just that... claims and unprovable

 

One thing that is extremely difficult to do is to align the die rotation.

As many know, there is a specific tolerance for die rotation at the US Mint. Typically, anything greater than 15% gets addressed whereas less than 15% is acceptable.

A 1% variance is significant. Below is perhaps representative of 3%.



Since each coin "could" vary in rotation from Obv to Rev, each surface on the restrike will readily display this overstrike.

I'm getting confused between the 1964-D Peace Dollar posts and this 2009-DC Proof.

 

Another satisfied customer Daniel!!

http://www.cointalk.com/t131739/

 

That is correct. You could also perhaps run a metallurgical analysis to determine the composition.

 

Someone would have to prove that I didn't use the proper host coin for overstriking. But that would be impossible because I haven't used anything except the two genuine US coin types specified. If necessary, I could demonstrate the entire production process, and the newly made product could be examined in detail, comparing it to previous examples sold in the market.