2009 Proof A.S.E. now on sale

no lol

 

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I was watching HSN when they were selling these. I guess he bought a retired die from the Denver mint and that is what he is using to make these. They guy selling them said Carr is making a lot of them, they had like 5,000 for sale on the show for $100.00 and the seller said they will be making a lot more. I would pay $20.00 for them just for melt value

 

I think he'd have to pump out about 28 million of them for this to happen.

 

That is one expensive "placeholder" for a spot in your album that will never be filled otherwise. I guess if you are extremely anul and have to fill every spot in your coin book, it might be worth the 100+ bucks to you. What about next year? And the year after that? and the year....? What if they just stop making proofs as of 2008?

 

Well if you look at the laws I quoted they would apply to Carr not HSN. So what would HSN care.

 

If the laws DO apply, then it seems that if HSN commissioned him to do this for them then they would certainly apply to HSN as well.

 

How does that law apply for a coin that was never produced?

 

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, but what is the difference between "overstriking" this ASE and, for example "overstriking" a Lincoln Cent with John F. Kennedy's picture next to Lincoln's portrait? Or running a cent through one of those "stretching" machines? Or running over a coin with a steamroller?

And as far as ANACS certification, isn't the coin still technically Mint State? The term "Mint State" refers to a coin being in an uncirculated grade (60 through 70). Isn't the ASE still in Mint State condition, albeit damaged?

 

Go look at the sections that were in bold and/or underlined. Sec 487 makes the creation of the dies themselves illegal, and sec 486 and 489 make it illegal if they are even similar to a US coin. Sure they didn't make an y proof 2009 ASE's, but they did make 2009 ASE's and they would be similar. In fact it could be called SIMILAR to any years ASE. I would say the laws apply. Whether they will be enforced is a different matter.

 

Then HSN is sitting on a gold mine. Er, I mean a silver mine.

 

Much ado about nothing.

These are novelty coins and are no different than if you took and polished a 2009 Silver Eagle with your Dremel tool. The process has simply been shortened by using a die set.

The coins are overstruck on authentic Silver Eagles to simulate a proof finish. The over struck portions are readily visible and the coin only "looks" like a proof. Side by side comparisons show it to not even compare with an actual proof.











It's a One oz of fine Silver 2009 Silver Eagle parent coin which has been overstruck with a die to simulate a proof finish.

Proof coins for 2009 were NOT minted so its not a representation of a US Coin. Only a representation of a coin the "could" have existed had the US Mint made them.

 

I disagree. The coin is re-struck with a second pair of dies. Yes, the parent coin is a US coin and legal tender, the altered coin is not. Yet it states that it is a US coin and by virtue of it's having a denomination, claims of legal tender status.

All legaleze aside, this is an attempt to create a fantasy piece that the US Mint chose not mint. Only to the educated collector, is this coin going to be judged for what it is. The rest of the world will be duped into thinking that it is something that it is not. In that way I feel that it is being misrepresented. The date, devices and mottoes on this coin were not placed there by US Mint dies and polished to look like a proof, this coin was struck by private dies to look like something that was never made by the US Mint.

Could you over-strike Peace Dollars with 1964-D dies and sell them without marking them copy? How about making a few 1922 Double Eagles into 1933s?

 

If I were to take a Dremel tool and polish up any coin and try to market it as a proof I would absolutely be in violation of the law. It's not the altering that gets you in trouble, it's what you attempt to do with the altered coin afterwards.

 

1933 WAS a real coin. Always has been as two example reside in the Smithsonian. The 1964-D Peace Dollar was not as no examples are known to exist but then, a restrike has already been done by the same manufacturer. ( http://www.dc-coin.com/1grabenercoinpressmedallionsaleprice-1.aspx )

Folks are entitled to their own opinions and if this activity were illegal, I'm sure Mr. Carr will hear about it but in the mean time, I'll simply enjoy my "Fantasy" Novelty pieces.

 

It's not being marketed as a real US Mint Proof coin but as a "2009 Silver Eagle Overstruck Proof Coin" Privately Minted Restrike. There is a difference.

The US Mint is not mentioned on the slab nor in the marketing nor is any representation made that its a US Mint product. It does have the same intrinsic PM value as a Silver Eagle though so the "One Dollar" text is mute. However when silver drops below $1 and ounce, then there may be problems in that respect.

 

The novelty pieces do look pretty nice. I just worry for Mr. Carr, but I'm sure the parties involved have done some homework going into it. I guess only time will tell really. I wonder if he'll be creating 2010 pieces since there will likely be no ASE proofs this year either.

 

I know that Mr. Carr did make inquiries with the US Mint, the Treasury Department, as well as the Federal Trade Commission with no responses. (The Federal Trade Commision is the entity in charge of administering the Hobby Protection Act.)

So, I guess he figured the only way to extract a response would be to simply make the coins.

It's a very thin line that is being tread which always draws lots and lots of opinions. I'm surprised its taken this long to be brought up on Cointalk.

Added: In the Words of Daniel Carr:

"they are obvious ALTERED coins. They are in the likeness of legal tender coins, and they ARE legal tender coins (now re-faced). "

 

Quotes from Daniel Carr pulled from the PCGS Forums:

"Ok, so here is the very brief chronology of what transpired when Coin World attempted to get a clarification on the legality of over-striking a genuine coin to make it look like a similar coin (but one that was never produced - specifically the 2009-DC "proofed" Silver Eagles):

Coin World contacted the US Mint with the details. The US Mint replied simply stating that I had not submtted a sample to them for review, but even if I had, enforcement of related laws lies with the Secret Service - contact them.
So then the Secret Service was contacted. Their response was basically: "The Secret Service doesn't render legal opinions for the public - contact the US Attorney's Office".
The US Attorneys Office (in Denver) was contacted. Their response was basically: "The US Attorney's Office doesn't render legal opinions for the public - get your own lawyer".

 

The 1922 plain lincoln cent was never produced either, so a new die could be used to remove the D on regular 1922-D cents to make a plain? Of course, it would not be used for fraudulent purposes :devil:

Sure they stamp Kennedy outline on a cent and get away with it, so why not stamp an extra obverse ( slightly rotated to match the 55/55). Of course, it would not be used for fraudulent purposes :devil:

The laws that Conder101 quotes covers it very well, and perhaps he is just testing if they will prosecute him or not.

But what really irks me are many of the posters who seem to always whine and complain about AT coins on eBay and how bad they are for the hobby, blah, blah, but here is a blatant attempt to use the hobby to satisfy greed and little else. IMO.

Jim

 

Realistically, how many people (other than Daniel Carr) are in a position to produce this type of overstruck ASE proof coin? TC