Don't Understand - PCGS Secure Plus & CAC

An advertisement in the 26 April 2010, edition of Coin World shows some coins in the new PCGS Secure Plus holders with "+" grades.
They also have CAC "beans" on them.

WHY?
Isn't this redundant?

OR
Is the "+" saying the coin is in the top end for that grade AND the CAC "bean" is saying the coin is in the top end of the top end coins?
Sort of like the top 20% of the top 20% (I think that makes it in the top 4%).

 

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Another case of "stickeritis," or, "Dr., I'd like a second, third, fourth ... opinion."
CAC (Albanese) has stated that they pay no heed to other company's grades when they decide whether to apply the coveted green bean. So now one has a coin in the upper end of the grade, according to two, unrelated, sets of experts. I suppose that might be important to some who traffic in the extreme high end, like high grade early gold, Gobrechts, etc, but the logic of this approach escapes me for those of us who merely exist in the numismatic troposphere.
One purpose of CAC was to "create a market" for its coins, IOW, Albanese will buy approved coins for "strong money," whatever that is. So having the green bean might improve liquidity somewhat. Also, Albanese is considered the best in the business at detecting doctored coins, esp. gold coins.
I think this also may be a case of the '+' designation being so new that not everyone trusts it, yet. And there are dealers who only handle CAC coins, and probably collectors who only buy coins with the 'haricot vert.'

 

Since I'm not really partial to the concept of using the "plus", I can only guess that CAC is doing nothing more than agreeing with the PCGS assessment.

Prior to the March 25 announcement, one of the issues that was discussed on the NGC forum was, "What happens if PCGS gives a coin the Plus designation, and CAC decides not to give it a green beanie?"

We will probably be seeing many more coins that were submitted under the SecurePlus service going to CAC for confirmation.....or not! To me, this "new" program is a complete waste of money and only serves to generate more revenue for both organizations without really improving the service for the customer.

Chris

 

CAC doesn't take the plus into account, just like they don't take the star into account. They only focus on the numerical grade, and is that coin either an "A" or "B" coin for the grade, if it is, it gets stickered.

So to a degree it is redundant, because the + means PCGS feels it's an "A" coin for the grade (.700-.999). So technically every single + should get a green bean. It just really falls into having a second opinion from a separate company.

 

I think both Pcgs & Ngc are feeling the heat! CAC runs 2-3 full page ad each week in Coin World. Kanga I agree I seen that ad too and was baffled too!

 

Oh contraire, Mr. Raider! Here is an e-mail exchange I had with CAC regarding the star designation (my e-mail at bottom, his response at top):

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Dear Dan:

Listed below is a note from John regarding your email.


Sincerely,

Michelle

- - - - - - - -
Dear Dan-

I haven't given this topic much thought until your recent email. I'm 99% certain that I haven't seen a star designated coin that I didn't think had excellent eye appeal. So...., I would say "yes", CAC agrees with the NGC star designation on CAC stickered coins. If you have any further questions, do not hesitate to call.

Thanks you for bringing this to my attention

John

- - - - - - - - - -

Michelle Kumpf

CAC

edited (phone)

edited (fax)

edited

- - - - - - - - - -

From: (e-mail address deleted)
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 4:28 PM
To: edited
Subject: The CAC Sticker and NGC Star Coins


There is much debate on the NGC forums regarding how CAC addresses NGC Star coins.

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3352875&nt=3&fpart=1

Can you either post there or provide me with the answer so I may post the information? The issue centers around whether the CAC sticker validates not only that the coin is an "A" or "B" coin, but also that it has exceptional eye appeal (the NGC Star definition).

My understanding of your service is that you do not validate NGC's determination of eye appeal. Thus, if an NGC Star coin possesses a CAC green sticker, it only represents that it is accurate for the grade.

Please respond so your service is clarified.

Best,

Dan (name deleted)

 

Touche' Mr. Catbert! I hadn't seen that over on the NGC thread. Thanks for clearing that up. I kind of found the wording of that email interesting, it seemed like the issue had never come up before. So I wounder if CAC didn't agree with the star, but the coin was a solid "B" or "A" coin, would they sticker it?

But as for the +, from what I've read CAC will not be taking the plus into account. Is that correct?

 

I don't know that along with many, many other things!

I too found his response troubling since it was kind of matter of fact, oh yeah, I guess so reaction. dd:

 

Is it possible that what CAC means is that they will not be swayed by the fact that it has a Plus designation?

Chris

 

Yes, I just wanted to make sure I got that right (Doug confirmed it).

CAC will not take the plus into account. It's only the numeric grade that matters. So if you see an MS64+ coin with a CAC sticker it only means CAC believes the coin is either an "A" or "B" MS64 coin.

 

All this may work in my favor.
I'm not going to pay extra for a "+" nor a CAC sticker.
But if many others turn their attention in that direction, maybe the coins without either (or both) will drop in price.
That will work fine for me as long as I keep in mind that I'm not buying PQ coins.

I think I've mentioned that I'm into this for the enjoyment, not as a potential investment.
I've decided that I will die with my collection intact.
Let the heirs decide what to do with it when I'm beyond caring.
I'll keep filling holes until I fill the 6' deep one.

 

LOL, that could be a sigline: "I'll keep filling holes until I fill the 6' deep one."

 

....does any of this stuff show up on the CDN bluesheet? my my the confusion

this can create for some of us.

 

Good one Kanga!!!:thumb:

 

Yep - seen a couple of those CAC and + coins. They also had big premiums attached to them in my opinion.

 

Though i like TPG,S in general, Adding more bells and whistles doesnt make
Much sense, It just gives the impression there trying to make more money!!

 

The NGC star, and now the PCGS + says enough about the coin. I still don't see why we need another grader to OK these coins. CAC is making money and their green bean is making these coins more expensive. I don't see a plus for the average collector. Only the high end investor/dealer/collector will gain from CAC's endorsement. I don't see the need for CAC.

Bruce

 

CAC can still be an important factor to some collectors on both the older style holders and the newer SecurePlus holders, even if the coin got a plus.

The value CAC added is that it was yet another opinion as to the grade of the coin. If PCGS/NGC are the third party opinion, then CAC was the fourth-party opinion.

So, even if NGC gives a coin a star or a plus or if PCGS gives a coin a plus, it's still just the opinion of PCGS/NGC... CAC's independent opinion of the coin may be relevant to some collectors.

Since grading is subjective and isn't an exact science (and really can't be perfected down to decimal fractions of grades), I expect some PCGS + coins to not get CAC stickers if CAC disagrees with PCGS. Likewise, some PCGS coins that didn't get a + will surely get CAC stickers.

 

I doubt that it will show up on any of the CDN weeklies.

Chris