CAC & Plus grade wackiness

Been cruising eBay (as I do), and I've noticed a popular and unfortunate trend. Probably 75% of people selling buy-it-now CAC green bean coins or PCGS/NGC plus grade coins are listing them at INSANELY high prices. Like CAC XF45 capped bust halves listed at AU55 to AU58 retail prices.
I understand people can charge whatever they want, but seriously people... a green bean or a plus next to your MS64 Morgan doesn't mean it's a MS65 or 66.

 

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A lot of controversy over the CAC stickers, or beans, not just here at CT but everywhere.

My opinion is they are nothing but a marketing tool to jack up the prices, as you've seen on eBay.

According to their own website, CAC is a verification service of the TPG's grade opinion.

They're no different a marketing tool than the TPG's Early Release or First Strike labels. Justification for jacked up coin prices.

I avoid slabbed coins with those silly little stickers on them like the plague.

 

As much as I hate those dumb green stickers, MAN do I wish I had come up with the idea first!! Marketing BRILLIANCE.

 

Marketing is what TPGs do best. But I also noticed that everything I like on ebay that is Buy it now is overpriced.

 

As well as GENIUS.

 

Say what you will about the green bean, but the proof is in the pudding. John Albanese is one of the most respected numismatist of all time and his opinion really counts. So when he declares a coin premium for the grade, the coin will trade at a premium. Should they fetch prices higher than the next grade, of course not.

Sorry for insulting your eyes with my avatar, I'm paying my debts to Jensenbay. It's a sad day.

 

Well said Kirk , I can see paying extra for a coin with a green bean , but the coin should stand on it's own merits . I've seen beautiful coins with green beans that were definitely worth a premium , and I've seen butt ugly coins that should be discounted . But like Kirk said the price should never be more than the next grade unless it has some rainbow toning that some would normally pay extra for anyways . Also if you're ignoring a coin with a green bean you are limiting yourself from some great coins . Of course if the seller is setting for the moon prices the coin should be ignored but not for the sticker but for the sellers greed .

 

I can't help what folks on ebay will do, but I can help folks who read these boards and will copy-paste something I have written previously on the boards. If, after reading that, folks still want to dismiss CAC as nothing more than a gimmick or a marketing ploy then I can only add that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...

Do a search of CAC on these and the NGC boards and you will find many heated discussions and may even find a post or two with sound logic embedded inside. Unfortunately, many posts regarding CAC have been pulled from the PCGS boards so a search over there might not help much.

I have found that with my clients that coins priced above $1,500 or so move faster with a CAC sticker and that those without the sticker have questions asked about them. I also don't buy into the pure comparison of coins with a CAC sticker vs. those without since CAC strives to sticker only the better coins within a grade range and attempts to exclude overly manipulated coins from their pool. Therefore, in a perfect world, the CAC stickered coins should, on average, be nicer than those not stickered if all coins were sent to CAC.

Personally, I like CAC and am an authorized dealer. I will also include the following bit that I have written many times previously. CAC is a tool that is available to all and, as such, it is quite similar to knowing how to use a loupe; having the knowledge to spot counterfeit pieces; understanding what manipulated and original coinage should look like or how they will likely appear; being able to interpret printed guide prices and auction results; understanding how to grade according to the ANA standards and how this grading differs from the various TPG grading standards; and learning all the options for buying and selling within the market.

Sadly, the vast majority of collectors ignore their study of coinage and thus are not truly numismatists. However, some folks pursue this knowledge and will happily listen to other opinions, regardless of whether or not they agree with those opinions. CAC can help all, but will help those who are willing to accept their help the most.

 

I don't hate the green bean. I just can't stop rolling my eyes at the asking prices on so many of them.

 

With rzage on this one. I do like a lot of coins with CAC stickers, but some of those puppies are but ugly in my opinion(or I should say zero eye appeal). Plus a few I might disagree with having the sticker period(but not many of those) - I skip those just like any other TPG coin (priced at the grade on the slab) where I disagree with the grade. I will also mention when buying I look at the coin not how many stickers or words are on the slab. Just my humble opinion.

 

Sorry this is off topic, but how do you get a coin stickered by CAC?

 

I honestly think they are just another example of collector's not knowing what they are looking at...that is what has made CAC popular. In the era of internet coin buying...I think that TPGs have found a valuable purpose. They give the buyer comfort in knowing where the coin stands as far as authenticity and being problem free and give a general idea of the grade (at least to a market standard). Since the coin can't be viewed in hand, it is nice that an "independent expert" has evaluated the coin.

That said, even online the buyer should be able to look at photos and determine if the coin is good for the grade or a slider (either on the high side or the low side). This is all CAC does. I think that if you can't do that...you really aren't a numismatist in my opinion.

 

I'm in your corner on this one. I do own coins with Green Beans and one with a Gold Bean. I don't go out of my way to buy CAC'd coins, but don't ignore them either. I respect what they add to the slabbed market. I've seen coins with a Green Bean that I wouldn't buy because I didn't like the look of the coin. In that instance, I think the bean is saying the coins technical grade is correct.

IMO, the Green Bean has become popular in the digital age because of a few factors. 1) JA's reputation. 2) many purchases are made based solely on a photo and the green bean provides another layer of assurance of the grade. 3) for collectors only, not numismatists, it's easier. They don't have to worry about the coin being mis-graded. 4) for the dealer, the coins likely sell faster and for a higher price than their non-bean counterparts.

 

Another issue too is those coins...the coins with the "gold bean" command insane prices from what I have seen. If you have an MS64 with a gold bean...sure, it's a high end MS64 (in theory)...but they sell for MS65 or better prices it seems. That is far more than they are worth. It's a great marketing job they have done.

I don't avoid CAC coins, but I certainly don't pay attention to the sticker. I value the TPG when buying online because I can't see the coin in hand and I want some level of protection. But, if I can't determine if the coin is graded appropriately based on the photos...then I pass. I don't need a sticker for that.

 

But, my understanding was CAC did 1 of 3 things. #1: determined the coin to be low for the grade and gave no sticker, #2 determined the coin to be good for the grade and awarded it a green sticker, or #3 determined the coin to be strong for the grade and gave it a gold sticker. Wasn't that the whole point?

My point is, it seems that the gold sticker coins sell for a premium far more than even the grade above the TPG grade.

 

The part in bold is incorrect. CAC will decline to put a sticker on coins they think are low end for the stated grade and they will decline to put a sticker on coins they think have been altered beyond their line of tolerance. Additionally, they will place a green sticker on coins they believe are accurately graded and solid for the grade as well as those coins they believe are at the very top of the grade or even possibly undergraded. Lastly, the gold sticker is reserved for those coins that they believe are clearly undergraded by at least one point and might be thought of as high end for the next grade up.

The point about surface manipulation is often ignored by folks who think about CAC. The TPGs are behind the eight ball when looking at coins since many coins have fresh levels of manipulation to their surfaces and they appear okay while other coins are manipulated in manners that are not yet understood by the TPGs or by CAC. However, over time some coins turn in their holders after manipulation and CAC endeavors to reject those coins for a sticker. Also, some manipulation techniques are later understood by the TPGs and CAC and coins that were previously certified as problem-free can get rejected because of this newfound information. The manipulation inspection aspect of the CAC process is extremely important and can serve to educate many folks; perhaps even more so than the opinion on grade.

 

Like Doug and Tom explained , the main thing to remember is any green bean coin is properly graded . The Green bean just means it isn't low for the grade . Its average or high for the grade . I think if they want to be more relevant they'd have green stickers for average , middle of the grade coins , and red (or whatever color) to indicate high for the grade . Then they could still use their gold sticker to say they believe it deserves the next higher grade , just remember if the majority of the coins with gold stickers got reholdered at the next grade they probably wouldn't even get the green bean so why pay more than the next grade .