What is this????

I was searching through some rolls and pulled out this cent...The first thing I noticed was the apparent doubling of the date...is this the machine kind or the doubled die kind?




I also noticed that there is like a raised line right below the rim through "In God We." What is this???

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

a very worn out die.

 

That is funny that it should happen to be a 1987 Penny. I was looking through pocket change and when I saw the 1987 penny I just knew it was an error because that 7 had the longest tail I have seen on any date. But it turns out that is normal. At least your penny has something/s cool and different about it.

 

I would say a form of die deterioration
JIM

 

I wonder if that 7 is a form of device migration, as mentioned by Mike D., just not on the rim.

 

you have ripple

you have a planchet with ripple effect, the raised (ripple) portion caused the 7 to imprint ,causing a faint 7 to appear. the raised line area close to rim also relates to ripple effect, nice find:thumb:

 

The doubling of the date and the ridge through IGWT are both manifestations of die deterioration. Very common.

 

Mike, is that 7 a kind of migration that you mentioned before? It's not on the edge, but it's a whole moved 7?

 

So would that be considered an error? Or just a bad die, I know
Some may be considered other,s not!

 

No it doesn't represent "design creep", which is a very rare phenomenon. It's just the kind of peculiar die deterioration frequently seen on zinc cents. It's only an error in the sense that the die was not replaced in a timely fashion.

 

There is no seperate "7" there at all. You got to learn how does are made and how they wear and learn to apply that to the striking of coins.
In this case the die is worn badly and most likely polished also. The surface of the die is slightly convex to begin with so the center portions fill with planchet material first then spread out with normal strike.
When this die struck this coin it was flatter than normal but still had some rounding but not enough but the edges were beginning to deform. This die struck the coin and instead of filling the die crisply it pushed or forced much of the the design onto the planchet. The ghost image of the "7" is the result of pushing outward the design intstead of filling the design - in effect it has mashed upon the coins surface as much as it as struck into the surface. The die being worn then had a slight rocking effect instead of the proper strike dead on. The "7" you see is a ghost - it's the same "7" as the primary - it's just a mimic of the primary.

 

Your explanation is not valid. Nobody really understands the formation of the incuse numbers. But it's clearly related to die fatigue.

 

You may want to re-group here on your assesment (of my description) if there is no understanding of these then only my words can be lacking in quality/quanity for description at this current time. You cannot state an explanation is not valid if the subject of same is unknown, that's just silly.
In the strictest sence I don't think the are encuse at all, I think they just appear that way.
As I said (worn dies), die fatigue and that really is the way I understand for right now.

 

either way, they are common enough especially in the early zinc cents that I quit setting them aside very shortly after beginning my ritual searches thru $25 boxes of cents.

 

Very good information flowing about the effects of die deterioration on the effects of the coins they are striking.
The subject is is very complex and the effects are quite varied on different series of coins depending on their individual metal contents.
I have recently ran across a handful of Zinc core Lincolns that show
Ghost Dates. 82 and 87 primarily off the top of my head. And have been trying to figure out what might be causing this effect.
Very Cool Thread Guys. :thumb:

Stewart

 

The doubling is definitely incuse (I've seen many like it). There is no expansion of the normal, raised number. There is no flattening of the normal raised number. Therefore your description and reconstruction of events is entirely fanciful. I'm honest enough to admit that I don't know why this form of die deterioration generates incuse, offset design elements. What I won't do is concoct an explanation out of thin air.

 

I certainly could be wrong and I know it is encuse (as it appears to us) of course but it was not stuck encuse as that is not possible, it ends up looking that way and I only offered my personal possible explanation for such.
I will not debate this much further with you as there is no possiblity we know "at this time" but I do have a feeling and tried to explaine it as "I really think the die (in this shape) may, intstead of coining start a stamping type of effect and this is the result. I may not have explained very it well (or understand it very well) but it's a theory at this point.

Do not attempt to ever suggest on here or anywhere that I "concoct of of thin air" one #@*& thing, That you will not get by with here - you do not and will not get by with making judgements about where my comments come from, your not going to do it, not now not ever!

My reasoning may indeed be faciful but it's not your task, or right to tell me where it comes from in negative ways and make such conclusions.
You know better than this or should and may apoligize as soon as possible.
I'm waiting,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Wow, I've been banned from sites for these kind of discussions. But there could be several reason for this effect.
Good discussion and I agree, a gentlemens apology needed

 

I will admit that I was a bit blunt in my rebuttal. But I do not respond to shouting or cartoon profanities.

 

OK, its been quite for a while now, so I'll ask my question. Is the 7 with the xtra material on the outside the same as the so-called poormans doubled die? Or is this something totally different because of the Plating?