Coin Grading/Authentication Services - Page 2

laz · 12-27-2002, 04:23 PM

"it doesn't matter much if lack of detail is from wear or strike. If the detail isn't there, it's not there, and eye appeal suffers. Just my view." Reid Goldsborough

Well,I guess,but you can also have a weakly struck coin grading BU and that doesn't have anything to do with the grade.Grading is simply the measure of wear that any given coin has recieved.Otherwise,a die trial grading BU moght recieve a net grade of VG8 Just a little food for thought,we aren't talking about strikes when discussing grades,we are discussing wear,pure and simple.~ Jim

**GDJMSP** · 12-27-2002, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laz

Well,I guess,but you can also have a weakly struck coin grading BU and that doesn't have anything to do with the grade.Grading is simply the measure of wear that any given coin has recieved.Otherwise,a die trial grading BU moght recieve a net grade of VG8 Just a little food for thought,we aren't talking about strikes when discussing grades,we are discussing wear,pure and simple.~ Jim

I'd have to disagree with you laz. BU is a generic term only - meaning as I'm sure you know - Brilliant Uncirculated. Yes - you can have a BU coin that is weakly struck. But no - BU has absolutely nothing to do with a coins grade. What's more - for a coin to be classified as BU - it has no wear at all. That is what uncirculated means.

But strike on the other hand is one of the primary grading criteria used by all of the grading services - the ANA - every coin dealer I ever met - every coin collector I ever met - and every professional numismatist I ever even heard of.

And there are 11 seperate grades of uncirculated - not just 1. And none of these 11 grades can show any wear at all. And this is where strike quality comes into the picture. So yes - strike matters a great deal when grading a coin.

Crito · 12-28-2002, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDJMSP

And there are 11 seperate grades of uncirculated - not just 1. And none of these 11 grades can show any wear at all.

Now I have to disagree, there are plenty of coins in lower MS grades with cabinet friction and bag wear. The way they differentiate is based on breaks in the luster, which indicates wear from handling.

And Reid is absolutely correct about provenance. The Adams 1804 Bust Dollar is obviously a 45, the only remaining luster is in the protected areas around the stars. Yet NGC upgraded it to a 50. So PCGS had to one-up them by regrading it a 58. That coin will never have full luster, doesn't matter how weakly struck it is.

And they wonder why I get ****ed when the undergrade my 100% full luster AU58's

Zman · 07-15-2003, 01:32 AM

I have seen 1925-s Buffalo nickels (which notoriously have a weak strike) graded by PCGS at MS64 and they don't look to good. I have a 1925-s Buffalo myself with nice luster and a decent strike graded by PCGS EF45. I haven't been a fan of PCGS and still aren't. I think there ego gets in the way of there grading. As other people have said grading is an opinion and I don't believe PCGS is any better than ICG or any of the top 4 or 5 grading companies. What is the reason there coins receive top dollar. I don't understand!

**Peter T Davis** · 07-15-2003, 09:28 AM

1920s Buffalo Nickels from the branch mints especially are difficult to grade due to poor strikes.

**GDJMSP** · 12-28-2002, 10:47 PM

A good point Crito - I agree. I should have been more specific and said wear from circulation.

As for provenance having a bearing on a coins grade - perhaps. It's a debatable subject and one that none of the grading services will ever admit to if they are guilty of it.

But for the coin you mention - I think it far more likely that the upgrades are due more to inconsistent grading standards ( the standards becoming looser over the years ) than it is due to provenance or the coins pedigree.

laz · 12-29-2002, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDJMSP

Quote:

Originally Posted by laz

Well,I guess,but you can also have a weakly struck coin grading BU and that doesn't have anything to do with the grade.Grading is simply the measure of wear that any given coin has recieved.Otherwise,a die trial grading BU moght recieve a net grade of VG8 Just a little food for thought,we aren't talking about strikes when discussing grades,we are discussing wear,pure and simple.~ Jim

I'd have to disagree with you laz. BU is a generic term only - meaning as I'm sure you know - Brilliant Uncirculated. Yes - you can have a BU coin that is weakly struck. But no - BU has absolutely nothing to do with a coins grade. What's more - for a coin to be classified as BU - it has no wear at all. That is what uncirculated means.

But strike on the other hand is one of the primary grading criteria used by all of the grading services - the ANA - every coin dealer I ever met - every coin collector I ever met - and every professional numismatist I ever even heard of.

And there are 11 seperate grades of uncirculated - not just 1. And none of these 11 grades can show any wear at all. And this is where strike quality comes into the picture. So yes - strike matters a great deal when grading a coin.

Ah but Brilliant Uncirculated is indeed a grade.My statement was that a weakly struck coin could grade BU. Uncirculated is even broken down into smaller grades (ie:MS60,MS61,ect) this isn't grading? :roll: You better break the news to PCGS :lol: a few services,I'd agree. No,seriously,of course BU is a grade,as much as VF or XF. Within each there's room for movement.XF goes from XF40 - XF49 technically,though circulated grades seldom get broken down numerically,I do see choice XF 45 quite often.,anf Ch.VF35 so I guess VF and XF are "generic" too :?: I can't agree there,at the average uncirculated level it reverses like algebra and negative numbers.Grading goes from 01 basil state to MS70 which in theory is the perfect coin. Technically grading is the state of preservation overall. As to the other commends,contact marks are not really wear,and cabinet rub reduces a coins grade to AU. ~ Jim

Reid Goldsborough · 12-29-2002, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Grading is simply the measure of wear that any given coin has received.

I think we need to define our terms. The above is the definition of "technical grade." But a coin's "market grade" involves a lot more than just wear -- overall eye appeal, which factors in strike, luster, toning, scratches, stains, etc. The grading services today all practice market grading. That's how a circulated coin, an AU-58 for wear, can be graded MS-63 (for better or worse).

Marotta · 12-30-2002, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reid Goldsborough

Quote:

Grading is simply the measure of wear that any given coin has received.

I think we need to define our terms. The above is the definition of "technical grade." But a coin's "market grade" involves a lot more than just wear -- overall eye appeal, which factors in strike, luster, toning, scratches, stains, etc. The grading services today all practice market grading. That's how a circulated coin, an AU-58 for wear, can be graded MS-63 (for better or worse).

No, what you call "grading an AU-58 as an MS-63" is an example of egregious error on their part -- no matter how "common" that might be.

I took the ANA Grading Course and passed it with high honors. I also watched the video from J.P. Martin -- or as much of it as I could put up with. NOTHING in either case supports what you said. In point of fact, TECHNICAL grading is the first pass, the bottom line, the basis for market grading. If a coin does not have the technical grade, it cannot get the market grade. Market grading only downgrades a coin's technical grade.

Where some people get confused -- and misuse the term "market grade" -- is in understanding the details of the Minting process. Entire runs of dates and whole series are known for weak strikes. The Mint reduces the pressure to get more strikes out of their dies. The Saint and the Peace Dollar are classic examples of that. Another perfect example is the Bust Half in which so much metal flows into that big bosom that less is available for the Eagle on the reverse. Large Cents were often struck on inferior planchets. There are many other examples, As a result, a coin from a series or year known for weak strikes or other problems will have allowance for that built into its true technical grade and a coin with _apparently_ AU detail is known to be and is graded to be Uncirculated, which it truly and objectively is.

If you can quote me from the PCGS or ANA or Photograde or Alan Hager books or an ANA Grading Course or your notes from ANA Grading Seminar you attended to show that a technical AU-58 can get an MS-63 because it has luster, strike, flash, and eye appeal, I will stand corrected. I will not change my own persnal opinion, but I will accept it as fact that the market makers have the opinion you ascribe to them.

**GDJMSP** · 12-31-2002, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laz

Ah but Brilliant Uncirculated is indeed a grade. ~ Jim

OK laz - here's the list of grades used by the ANA. The grading companies use the same list - even if not the same standards.

http://www.coinzone.com/CoinResource...asp?article=41

Now you find and point out to me where BU is listed as one of the grades. Then I'll agree with you that BU is a grade and not a generic term.

Reid Goldsborough · 12-31-2002, 05:13 PM

Quote:

I took the ANA Grading Course and passed it with high honors.

I'm glad you passed, Michael. I was really worried there for a while. And with high honors! Mom must be proud.

I

Quote:

also watched the video from J.P. Martin -- or as much of it as I could put up with. NOTHING in either case supports what you said. In point of fact, TECHNICAL grading is the first pass, the bottom line, the basis for market grading. If a coin does not have the technical grade, it cannot get the market grade. Market grading only downgrades a coin's technical grade.

It's fine that this is what the ANA and J.P. Martin says. But this isn't what happens in the real world. I'm not saying it's right. But you really need to look at more coins. Plenty of technical 58s wind up as 63s because of the particular coin's superior eye appeal -- luster, toning, and so on. I'm talking wear here, not rub, not strike. I'm talking about sliders. It's all part of the game. If you submit a slider to a grading service enough times, you get back what you want, sometimes, according to dealers I've talked with.[/quote]

Marotta · 12-31-2002, 09:59 PM

Reid Goldsborough:
"I'm glad you passed, Michael. I was really worried there for a while. And with high honors! Mom must be proud."

My mother is dead. Leave her out of this unless you want to meet some of my cousins from the East Coast.

I cited my source of expertise. Your denigration of it -- which you will next call "humor" -- is yet another example of what you also call "girlish hairpulling" in a discussion.

I am an ANA-certified expert grader. I have said on RCC that my lack of practice on a daily basis is something I am aware of. Nonetheless, I understand the theory. I know that you contradict yourself. In your "Periodic Post" you do, indeed, give the correct explanation of what "market grading is." Your re-definition here is wrong.

Furthermore, I asked you to cite a source. You could not. You referred only to an anonymous collective of "coin dealers." You cited an unspecified population of "sliders."

I agreed up front that egregious examples exist. I deny that they are "market grading." They are failures in the system, not the standards of achievement. The Adams 1804 Dollar Class III might be the classic case in point.

Nevertheless, "market grading" is not the resubmission of a coin multiple times to purchase the grade you want.

laz · 01-01-2003, 08:08 PM

This just shows how subjective grading is.Technically a MS63 coin is MINT STATE and definately not "AU",saying it can happen is stating the obvious,we're all human.That's were better services come in handy.They go for a concensus opinion of three different graders to arrive at their concluded grade,so the odds against human error just got better. 8) Still it goes to show that each collector should learn the basics themselves.
Happy New Year guys! ~ Jim

Reid Goldsborough · 01-03-2003, 10:36 AM

Quote:

I cited my source of expertise.

Sorry about your mother, Michael. You didn't cite any EXPERIENCE though. And that's my point. "Expertise" without experience is Ivory Tower grandstanding. You say things are the way they are because of a course you took and a video you watched. I say, look around the real world. It doesn't work this way. For better or for worse.

rkkay · 01-03-2003, 12:06 PM

The info about slabs is awesome. Thanks.

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