Heritage on a Witch Hunt - They Bully Dallas Observer to Name Names

Hey all, been a bit, I was away on business. I got an interesting email in my box yesterday:

THE DALLAS OBSERVER HAS BEEN SUBPOENAED TO DISCLOSE YOUR USER
INFORMATION. PLEASE READ THIS EMAIL CAREFULLY.

A comment was posted to dallasobserver.com from this email address. As
the Observer states in its Privacy Policy, we value your privacy and
will not disclose any user information (such as email address) without
your consent or unless under a court order.

The Observer has been served with a subpoena in connection with a court
case that requests disclosure of “information to identify” you and
other users who have posted comments to the Observer website. This
information may include your email address and/or IP address.

The subpoena was issued in the case of Heritage Auctions, Inc. v. Gary
L. Hendershott, et al., Cause no. DC-09-13332, in the 298th District
Court of Dallas County, Texas. A copy of the subpoena is attached to
this notice.

IF YOU WISH TO OPPOSE THE DISCLOSURE OF YOUR USER INFORMATION, YOU MUST
FOLLOW THE PROCEDURE DESCRIBED BELOW.

The Observer will comply with the subpoena - which calls for the
Observer to provide the requested information by December 15, 2009 -
unless you take action in court to prevent the disclosure of your user
information.

You have the right to appear in court (anonymously, if you wish) to
oppose the disclosure of your user information by filing a “motion to
quash” the subpoena. You may wish to consult with a lawyer of your
choosing to discuss your legal rights, including your First Amendment
right to speak anonymously. Contact information for the court is:

298th Judicial District Court
Hon. Emily G. Tobolowsky, Presiding
Carolyn Dupree Brown, Court Coordinator
298th District Court
George L. Allen, Sr. Courts Bldg.
600 Commerce St.,
Box 822
Dallas, Texas 75202
214-653-6781

The subpoena can be seen here:

http://www.tribalsoup.com/cache/SUBPOENA.pdf

These are people who simply posted opinions about a news story posted online...much the same way a person might read about OJ simpson and say 'I think he is guilty' or read about Bernie Madoff and call him a scumbag. Comments about the story below the story. What is funny is they probably want to know if I am in league with Hendershot, which I am not...the REAL funny thing is those that came out defending them in the discussion probably were in league with Heritage and they are not named...its fine to champion them, if you say you dont like their procatices...then they go after you...how dare me express the personal opinion that I dont like their business model

In essence, what I said there was an abridged version of what I said here. I said that what I felt what they do could only be called shill bidding if they are bidding under an alias to bump the price of an item to a minimum price, I said I felt the practice was shady and they should just set those minimums from the first posting and not bid on their own items (or bid for the person who consigned to them) as I couldnt think of any other reason to do this save to bump the price and most people would call this shill bidding, at least on ebay they do. If nothing else, bid in a way that makes it clear to all they are bidding for an item which had its price bumped by the house, dont do it under an alias. Let people know they are bumping prices.

I did not say they were breaking the law, I even said they certainly spell out this practice in their terms and conditions so anyone who enters into a deal with them should know that at any given time they might be bidding against the house who has inside info.

In the end these were comments made by me, they are personal opinions...but now they seem to warrant lawyers efforts to obtain my personal information. I stand behind my right to express my personal opinion on Heritage and indeed most Auction Houses that operate this way...I would not use them because the deck is stacked...not to mention I have never gotten a coin at a good price (or at all) because the prices always go much higher than I am willing to pay. I wont hide from them, I made the statements under my real name and I will offer them my e-mail address if they like, I have done nothing wrong.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Drusus:
Wow, all that I can say is: Good Luck!

Is there anything that we can do to help?

 

Wow, I don't buy from them.. But if they do this then IN MY OPINION and from what I understand of what "shill" Bidding is from my Ebay and Other auction experience.. Ah, I would call it shill...

I think I found a good reason not to buy/sell to them. I had a reason I was staying away... After I signed up on the website.. I think I must have said my collection was worth a bit because they called me to see if i would want to Sell/Auction any items... The sales guy came on a bit strong and turned me right off...
I know that they have a great mix and I can get the coins I need from them... But I have found That If I listen to That Side of me that Whispers "Say Away..." ... I come out Better off....

I am sorry to hear of your troubles with them..
Stand up for your Rights Brother!

 

I believe they are just trying to find out whether I am either in league with the man who sued them over their practices, or I AM him under a different name and trying to smear their good name. I do not want to be a part of a class action suit against them as I am not litigious. I just don't use them and will freely express why I don't use them.

These are just personal opinions from a person who is in no way connected to anyone involved in that case. A few casual comments made regarding a news article I read. I said much of the same things here in a thread about the case. Once I expressed my opinions, I moved on.

The funny thing is, a person who was supposed to be defending them, in a way, agreed with me as he said that Heritage has an obligation to those who sell through them to get the best price possible and not to sell below that price. So they bid to make sure it doesn't sell for less than they are willing to sell for...they are JUST setting a minimum price by bidding under an alias (the name Gresham)...again...in my opinion this is what shill bidders do on eBay. The honest, up front thing to do would be for the house to simply set a minimum and not set the price much lower than what they will sell for to get buyer interest in what they might think is a great deal then bumping up the price under and alias.

He states that all an auction is, is a middle man getting a seller and buyer together and negotiating a price...I don't agree with this...it might be what they are trying to do in practice but IMO an auction is not a negotiation. When I go to Vcoins and find a coin I want but it is priced higher than I want to pay and I contact the seller and tell him I want the coin but I would like them to knock 50 USD off and he comes back and says he will knock 30 off and I agree to buy, THAT is a negotiation...its a haggle.

In the end...what I stated was personal opinion and as far as I can tell that's not against the law. Just think if every person who came to this forum and complains about how eBay or wal-mart does business was then hunted down by eBay or wal-mart in this way...eBay would be doing little else but having its lawyers requesting subpoenas all day and half the people on this forum would be listed!!

Thanks for the offer for help, another person who was listed is preparing a class action suit against them, I declined to join in because I dont want to sue Heritage, I just want the right to express my opinions on news articles of the day and the business practices of companies...I will contact Heritage myself and give them my personal info and go from there. If they force me to spend a dime or go to Dallas to be grilled...then I will join the lawsuit to recoup my expenses.

 

Looks as if now you and others will have an opportunity to face the defendant ( Heritage ) face -to- face in open court, the Judge and Jury and state your opinions and any suspicions you have.

Anytime one promotes unsubstantiated and derogatory and libel comments against a named Defendant during an ongoing lawsuit, they leave themselves open to being subpoenaed by that Defendant.

I hope you are able to work this out between your Attorney and Heritage.

 

Well, If they force me to do so I will but I will no do so without being compensated for my time and any expenses. I have not stated anything that is not factual or could not be backed up by the companies own terms and conditions.

This might serve as a warning to all the users here who come and express a personal opinion about the practices of any business like eBay (an almost daily occurrence here) or comment on a news article in the opinion area below the article. I guess free expression of ones own opinions can be dangerous!!

Heritage is not the defendant, they are the plaintiff. I have said nothing that is not substantiated by the companies own admission. I am not promoting anything, I am expressing a personal opinion.

 

Well, I have to say them trying to obtain your information by threat is a bit weaslly, and their chances of doing so are so remote it's not even worth commenting on further. But, in regards to "shill bidding", it's nothing more than the house imposing a reserve without declaring one to the bidders. Every single live auction I've ever attended does this. Bidders will bid it to a point and if it doesn't come close to the pre-set reserve between the auction house and the seller, the house either calls it unsold if no sell guarantee was made, or declares sold to the house if a sell guarantee was made. I see no difference with that and what some call shill bidding. As you said, make your high mark and stick to it. If everyone did this the house might be stuck buying more than selling and curb the practice some.
Guy~

 

These are just some of the reasons I do not and probably NOW never will purchase anything from on line auction places. Actually the same goes for in person auction places.

 

Does it matter WHEN they bid? Should I call it then pre-shill bidding? What other reason would they bid on their own items beside to drive the price up? Why not just start the auction with a minimum? Whether they are bidding under a fake name because they honestly want to buy the item THEY are trying to sell, or bidding, as they say, in the name of the consignor (why a consigner would want them to bid on items they are selling is beyond me...save to bump the price to a minimum) is not important as the fact that they DO bid on their own auctions, under a fake name, and by doing this they bump the price up to a certain level. This is what I have always seen as shill bidding whether it is one bid or 5 bids (certainly on eBay one can shill bid on ones own items with just one bid and anyone who does not beat that bid will be outbid from just that one bid from a shill).

It is still a case of the seller (or someone connected to them) bidding on their own items, or on consignors items (supposedly on the consignors behalf) and thus bumping the price. people do not shill bid under the name they are selling under...one component of shill bidding is making it seem like someone else is bidding...this requires another person in on it or a fake name (in this case a fake name). If they pre-bid on an item under a fake name...to me that is basically shill bidding and the only reason they do that is to bump the price to a certain level or, to buy that item at the lowest acceptable price (with insider info) and sell it for more, win win.

Certainly they are up front that they do this, just not up front as to WHEN they do it as they are doing it under an alias that most people, before now, did not know.

I did not say they were breaking the law, I did not say they made this practice a secret, I did not say other auction houses don't do it, I said I personally do not like the practice and would not play that stacked game...this is MY personal opinion and I am not only entitled to have it but to express it.

I am not here to rehash the issue already hammered to death in another thread, simply to report what has happened to me. I will say to anyone, as I always say to people complaining about eBay...if you don't like the way they do business, then don't use them...if you do like this way of doing business...by all means...use their services.

Here are a few definitions of a Shill:

A shill is an associate of a person selling goods or services who pretends no association to the seller/group and assumes the air of an enthusiastic customer. (such as bidding under a fake name)

Shills, or "potted plants", are sometimes employed in auctions. Driving prices up with phony bids, they seek to provoke a bidding war among other participants. Often they are told by the seller precisely how high to bid, as the seller actually pays the price (to himself, of course) if the item does not sell, losing only the auction fees.

In this case...they are pre-bidding to bump the price to an accepted minimum...the starting price is set lower to garner interest in something priced cheaper than they ever intend to sell at. In this case a pre-shill bid bumps the price up to the level they are willing to sell at.

EBay defines shill bidding: Shill bidding is bidding that artificially increases an item’s price or desirability. It’s also bidding by the people the seller knows—including family members, roommates, or employee—who could have certain information about the item that other members aren’t aware of. To make sure no one gets an unfair advantage, we don’t allow shill bidding on eBay.

On Heritages site they say they bid on their own items or the items of the consignors and specifically say they do so with inside information. They are not having someone else they know do it, they are doing it themselves under a fake name. They ARE bumping the price up from the set starting price, albeit in a pre-auction bid.

It seems like a shill bid to me. It is their right to do this, and it is my right to see it as shady and say so. The sum total of my actions taken is not to use them and to express a personal distaste for the practice. I thought this was my right...If you think I should simply call it 'pre-auction bidding by the house under a fake name'...so be it.

 

Heritage is not on a witch hunt and we are not trying to bully anyone. In fact, Heritage believes it has been the victim of systematic defamation and civil extortion by Gary Hendershott, a former consultant who owes us over $1 million, and his attorneys. Below are links to Heritage’s Motion for Sanctions and our Defamation and Civil Extortion Lawsuit against Hendershott and his attorneys:

1. ^ http://74.220.219.130/~heritah3/files/Hendershott_Heritage's_Motion_for_Sanctions_--_court-stamped.pdf
2. ^ http://74.220.219.130/~heritah3/files/Hendershott%20Senter%20defamation%20lawsuit%20court-stamped.pdf

We have no quarrel with anyone who simply expressed an honest opinion, nor do we have any dispute with our neighbors and friends at the Dallas Observer, who have written many positive stories about Heritage over the years. In order to litigate our case, we are merely trying to discover which of the anonymous Dallas Observer postings were actually made by Hendershott and people working for him.

We have already dismissed “JR” and “Chris Welch” from the subpoena, as we are satisfied that neither of them is Gary Hendershott or working for Hendershott.

Drusus, we will gladly dismiss you as well if you'll let us know what name you posted under on the Observer Blog. A PM here or via e-mail at stewarth@ha.com would be great.

For the record, the correct, legal definition of shill bidding is bidding for the purpose of raising the price on an item without the intention of buying that item. Heritage does not engage in shill bidding, period. In fact, we open all live bidding at the reserve (i.e. no chandelier bidding), unlike most other auctioneers, even Christie’s and Sotheby’s. And we actually disclose reserves several days prior to the auction. Since the identity of our bidders is never announced by us, any internal shorthand we might use could hardly be termed an “alias”, and the use of that shorthand is utterly meaningless to our clients, as much as Hendershott and his attorneys have attempted to make our legitimate business practices seem sinister. Feel free to read the two court-stamped documents linked above, and we hope you’ll understand why we felt we had to take these measures to protect our very valuable reputation.

Stewart Huckaby
1-800-872-6467 x1355
coins.ha.com

 

And that's your right to think that GD, and Heritage will not hunt you down for it because you champion their practice.

It is not my wording when I say they have insider information on the coins they sell then bid on...that is their wording off their own terms and conditions. Lets get past the fact that other auction houses do it as well, we might be able to agree that if 1 or 50 houses do the same thing, it does not automatically make it right. I deliberately do not use these auction houses for this very reason. I am aware CNG and other places have the exact same policy. I believe in NY, at least they have to identify themselves so at least other bidders know when the house is bumping (bidding).

Lets also drop the argument that simply because I don't like it doesn't make it wrong. I have consistently said I am expressing my own opinion. I don't like the practice, that's me, its wrong in my eyes...I have said that a million times and made it clear I am expressing MY opinion...I know some people like to think what they say is universal fact...I am not saying that and in the post above yours I said If you do not have a problem, by all means, bid away.

Comparing them bidding in an auction they are running to me as a single buyer unassociated with the auction is not correct either. I am not bidding on my own items...I am not manipulating by own auction prices...I have nothing to gain by bidding save a vain hope of getting a good price. But if you see no difference, that is your right.

If you see no problem with an auction house who bids on their own merchandise, or...for some unknown reason, bids FOR the consigner, the person obviously NOT wanting to buy his own merchandise...that's fine. I can only conclude that Heritage would bid on behalf of the consigner...again...the person trying to SELL the item, to make sure it does not sell below the price they have predetermined to be the minimum they are willing to sell for (this price includes their profit margin).

If you don't see anything a little shady about the fact that they are posting the item with a starting bid, then bumping the price to that minimum which, behind closed doors they have set, that's fine.

I can only conclude they are doing it to ensure the REAL unpublished minimum price is met...I can see no other reason.

People see the lower price and think they might have a chance to get something cheap, it causes more interest in an item if the starting bid is lower...but they might not know that they have no intention of EVER selling it at that price because they will, under another name, bump the price to the REAL minimum.

this is also a form of shilling, creating an artificial interest in an item that in reality will never sell for that price because they will, under another name, make sure the price goes to a certain level.

Certainly if they end up winning it then they bought the item at at that true minimum, not as low as the stating price but at the true preset minimum others weren't privy to and will then resell it at a profit even if they have to wait some time with it on sale...

If they LOSE then they have assured a minimum price without having to SET that minimum price outright...thus the price is higher and they get more money...again...its win win for them...

Think they have a right to fix auctions so they cannot lose? That's fine...I do as well...I think they could do the same by just setting the minimum up front and not use the 'hey look at this coin at this real low price, come bid and maybe you can get a good deal'...then those people realize there was no chance in hell they were ever going to get that item at that price, even if nobody else bids, because the house was going to bid and make sure the item sells at least at the minimum THEY preset before the auction but did not start the auction at that price because then they wouldn't have gotten as much interest.

I cannot state any clearer how the auction house has set up this game in a win win situation where, in almost any situation, they will win and you will never get that great low price it was posted at. For me, I would rather the seller just be up front about it...tell me the price you want and I will tell you want I am willing to pay and maybe we can meet in the middle. Or if nothing else, I like auctions where the seller cannot bid on his own merchandise. There are just to many ways this can be abused....call me a cynic.

But these are all my personal opinions and if you do not agree with them, or you think I am crazy and seeing flaws where there are no flaws, that is certainly your right and I am not interested in trying to convince you as I am well aware that would never happen. We are just rehashing what we have already discussed and I would rather not do that. All I have done is state those opinions and stop even trying to use these auction houses because I disagree with them.

 

We have already dismissed “JR” and “Chris Welch” from the subpoena, as we are satisfied that neither of them is Gary Hendershott or working for Hendershott.


One of those names is me thus if you are dismissing me from it, then I have no further problem with Heritage.

I stated in this thread that I was under the assumption this was what you were trying to do and was going to write you directly to assure you that I have no connection with Mr. Hendershott, even though I was told by several people I should simply get a lawyer and not contact you. I, in fact, this mr. Hendershott is going about this the wrong way, if he disagees with your practices, he should simply not use you any more and move on. That what I would do.

As I have stated here, I do not want to sue anyone or be sued, I am not the type to try to make legal troubles everytime I a disagree with something. My way of dealing with a compnay I disagree with is simply not to use them. I made those statements simply a comment to a news article, they were simply my opinions.

Thanks for letting me know and good luck. Thread over as far as I am concerned.

 

Drsus, It is clear from your posts that you do not understand what a shill is and misunderstood Heritage's intent in seeking the information described in the OP. Please try and be more accurate in your future posts, because spreading misinformation does nobody any good, and IMO the only one on a witch hunt is you. Respectfully...Mike

 

Even though Leadfoot and I seldom agree on issues, I have to agree with him on this one. I also think this thread should be closed.. Too much information here and a lot of it should be kept between both parties or exchanged over the confines of the private messaging system.

Thanks

 

Actually, folks, I believed that this thread should be kept open.

Simply put, it is very educational for those of us who are not 'normal' auction bidders.

Gentlemen:
I admit, I learned a lot here.

Thanks to all for posting, including SWhuck

 

I think it just lacks professionalism to keep it open. These are clearly matters for the two parties and/or courts to decide. Not meant for viewing by anonymous on-lookers.

 

Whether you call it shill bidding or not, and regardless of whether the bidding occurs during the pre-auction bidding or during the live auction, the thing that makes me somewhat uneasy about Heritage bidding on it's auctions is that they are the only ones besides me (and whoever else I tell) that knows my current max bids.

For purposes of illustration, suppose I know BNB's max bid on a coin he is currently the high bidder on which is currently at a price well below his max bid. If I wanted to, I could place a bid that I think is fair for the coin and that I be willing to buy the coin at but which also happens to be just under his max bid. I could do this during the pre-auction bidding or live auction bidding and it would automatically cause BNB's bid to jump to the next increment which is still at or under his max bid. Obviously, I have no intention of doing this (don't worry BNB!!!) and I also have no financial incentive to cause BNB's bids to go higher. The only other person that knows BNB's max bid besides me and BNB is Heritage. They, on the other hand do have a finanical incentive through the increased buyer's premium and in getting more money to their consignors in making such a bid that they claim is fair for a coin they think is currently going too low, all at the potential detriment of a bidder like BNB.

That said, I keep using Heritage because I have no reason to suspect they have ever misused the max bid information in that manner against me or anyone else and I trust them when they say they don't look at the current max bids when doing their own in house bidding. But the fact that they have all of that info under the same roof and are also potential competitors in my bidding on coins still concerns me a little bit. Overall, Heritage is one of the best in the business and will keep putting in my max bids without too much worry

 

Not sure if any thing is very clear for you sir but lets see:

A shill can be many things (it could be a person in a crowd planted to sway an audience) but in auction terms a shill bidder is a party who is in league with the seller (or the seller himself under a different name), with inside information who bids on an auction to bump the price up...in short. There are many varieties of shills. If I am mistaken then feel free to correct me for those who come later.

If you had read this thread then you will see that from the very first post, and others after, I mention that this could simply be a case of Heritage trying to assure I am not in league with Hendershott which I am most definitely not as I don't even agree with his lawsuit.

Please try to be more accurate in the future, reading the thread you are commenting on would help that.

As you seem not to have read my posts very closely, I am not sure if your opinions of me are worth commenting on but I will suffice it to say, In my opinion, there is nothing inaccurate (or very little) in my posts. Much of it is just personal dislike of their business model anyway. If you disagree, I will lose no sleep.

This post was not to rehash and bicker about Heritages business model (but some here love to bicker so I knew it was inevitable) but to post what they were doing in regards to my few harmless posts concerning them. As it seems this is resolved, I believe this thread holds little value and I am okay with it being deleted...or not...I don't care.

I am not on a witch hunt, I was shocked to see my name on a list in a subpoena and wanted to clear that up as soon as possible and felt this was a good way to get a bit of attention from the right people and it apparently worked as I have been informed I have been dropped from the list...mission accomplished and my issues with Heritage are over. My opinion of them is well documented and there is little need to rehash that over and over again ad nauseum...as far as I am concerned, this thread is over for me. I have no issues with them as I do not even use them. If you are looking for praise for them, dont hold your breath.