stainless

I had a nice conversation with r-zage yesterday, and we talked about the TPG's market grading. I was then informed that the TPG's do not follow the ANA grading standards guide.

So, my question - why do we? Why not just figure out how the TPG's grade, and grade like them? If I go by my ANA guide and call a old Bust Quarter (for instance) an AU-55, send it to them and it comes back a MS-63, because they market grade, then why don't we?

I guess it's okay in the way, as the guide makes us be more strict...idk


stainless

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grizz

.......i guess there really should be a TPG grading guide book! what say you?

xtrmbrdr

I recently bought this book from PCGS. I find it very informative regarding a number of subjects, including but not limited to grading.

http://www.amazon.com/Official-Guide...0690764&sr=1-1

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GDJMSP

And that is the ONLY published grading guide there is for any of the TPG's. But there is a problem with it in my opinion. For example, they do not use a separate standard for the various grades. Instead they lump them together and make you guess as to what any particular coin may or may not grade. They list their standards like this - VF20/35. And then there is one written standard for that group. There is no distiction or standard for VF20, VF25, VF30 & VF35. They do the same thing with the MS grades, but they do tell you that 60, 61 & 62 will have more marks than higher grades. But 64 and up are all lumped together with the same standard. Again, you have to guess as to what the proper grade would be for any given coin.

Of course there is one big advanatge, for the TPG, of using this method - it makes it downright hard for you to say that they have over or under-graded a coin because you have no written standards specifically for each grade to compare them to.

Now this is why I think the ANA standards are so important. They provide specific written standards for far more individual grades. For example they list separate standards for VF20 & VF30; XF40 & XF45, AU50, AU55, AU58 and in the MS grades they list 60, 63,65,67 & 70. And for popular coins like Morgans they list standards for all the MS grades.

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illini420

The Grading Sets in the PCGS Registry are quite helpful, especially sets like mine with decent photos.

http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcases.aspx?c=193

I know PCGS owns grading sets that their graders use, for the past few years there have been rumors of plans to photograph and put them on the website, but they don't seem to be in any hurry to do so. I've seen the grading set on display at Long Beach before though, sort of cool.

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CrustyCoins

Over half of those grading sets don't even have photo's. Seems like a waste of time to share them. Yours is an excellent exception.

PCGS put their grading set on display at one point unfortunately I was not able to make that show. I have talked with David Hall a couple of times through e-mail about the grading set and it is a constant work in progress. They are always looking for generic examples to fill holes. I offered one of my G03 gold examples but it was a key date so they declined.

TheNoost

I think the ANA is more exacting and TPG leave more to personal interpretation.

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rzage

There is room for eye appeal , but they state they will give a coin with slight rub (wear ) an MS grade , why can't they just grade it AU as the ANA book says and let the seller and buyer determine the market value ?
rzage

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rzage

PCGS s book Guide to Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection has a lot to be desired as Doug stated but at least they have a book with some of their reasoning for how they grade , I've heard NGCs book is completely worthless , has anybody read it or know about it ?
rzage

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Leadfoot

Many of us do.

Lehigh96

I think you are right on point. When I grade coins, I use my experience with TPG graded examples as the standard rather than the ANA guidelines. IMO, it has nothing to do with right or wrong. The simple fact is that I buy/sell PCGS and NGC graded coins. It is of no benefit to me to use the ANA guidelines if neither PCGS or NGC use them. Understanding grading is very important. Understanding that grading is subjective and changes with the standards applied by the grader is even more important.

To illustrate my point, Doug consistently grades every coin more conservatively than the TPG's. This is not by accident, it is because he applies the ANA standards strictly. The TPG's do not and the standards they use are not as conservative. The result is that Doug routinely feels that TPG graded coins are overgraded. Whether they are actually overgraded or not depends solely on which grading standard you apply.

GDJMSP

Ahhhh, but this has not always been the case Paul. Remember, you've only been around for a year and that is all you have to base your comments on. As those that have known me for several years can attest, up until a year or two ago, when I estimated the grade of just about any coin, whether raw or slabbed, I was rarely wrong.

But in the past 2 years the TPG's have changed their standards to more closely reflect the value of a coin than the true grade of the coin. In other words, they have been over-grading just about everything. Even if you base it on their own standards.

Yes, I personally follow ANA standards. And they are most definitely more conservative than any TPG's standards. But I also knew how each and every TPG there was graded coins. And if you had a raw coin and told me who were going to submit it to then I could tell you what that slab was likely to say when you got it back.

Call it being stuck in a rut if you wish, but in the year or two since the TPGs changed I have not been able to adjust to their new standards - yet. And of course those standards are not written down anywhere either. That's why I routinely feel their coins are over-graded. Because based on their old standards - they are over-graded.

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Mark Feld

Doug, I'll have to disagree with that. If you had said in the past 10-15 or so years, I wouldn't quibble. But, if anything, overall, I believe that NGC and PCGS have been stricter, not more liberal in their grading the past few years.

Edited to add: I am basing the above on my own observations, as well as comments from a number of very large/active sharp submitters I talk to.

GDJMSP

Mark I might go along with you, at least for the past 6 months because of CAC and the market drop. But there is one thing. Other than the past 6 months I have never, never, seen reports over the years by anyone, and that includes all the big names, that didn't say the same thing you are saying. It seems that everyone always thinks the TPG's are tightening up. I can remember reading Laura, complaining for years on end it seems, that the TPGs were too dang tight.

But if they are tightening up, then where do all the upgrades come from ? Why is it that all the older slabs, and not just the rattlers but the next 2-4 generations of PCGS and NGC slabs as well, get cracked open and the coins resubmitted. And why did a whole lot of peole make a lot of money doing exactly that ?

To my recollection the TPG grading remained fairly consistent through all of the early and middle years of the recent bull market. It was only in late '07, 08 and early '09 that they got pretty loose in my opinion.

And if it is true as they say that the TPG's don't grade coins, they price them - then it could not really be otherwise. For their grading always lags behind the market increases. And that would place that timing just about right.

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900fine

That's one of the first books I bought. It has some value, but much less than I thought. And it certainly does not define PCGS's grading standards.

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