Design hub doubling

Treashunt · 07-28-2009, 03:44 PM

DESIGN HUB DOUBLING

Design hub doubling is one of my favorite classifications. For the reason that I favor it, read on to the end. To continue for now, what is design hub doubling?
Essentially, this doubling occurs when two different deigns on two different working hubs are used to create a die. Remember, a die is made by impressing it with a hub, then heated and re-impressed with the hub once again, to improve the die’s details. Anytime that there is a difference in the hub that is used it will create a difference in the die.
The first example that I’ll show is the 1943/2 Jefferson war nickel. The die was first impressed with a hub bearing a 1942 date. Then, after heating, a 1943 hub as used for the second impression. Whatever the difference from hub one to hub 2 is what will create the difference in the die. In this instance, the difference is in the date.
So, the difference is the 3 vs the 2 in the last digit of the date. Commonly called an overdate, the war nickel is technically a doubled die, obverse. These errors are fairly common during war years. Remember that many skilled workers were call to serve in the armed forces and the mint (like many employers) has to use whatever help was available to them.
Another example is the 1878 (8 over 7) tail feathers reverse. The design difference is the number of tail feathers on the hub. This is another extremely popular variety. One more popular example of design hub doubling is the 1960 small/large date Lincoln cent. This is usually found in proof sets, and is a very popular find especially when cherrypicked.

There is one great advantage to studying these three example. Each and every one of them can be cherrypicked. I (personally) have found 1 example of the 1878 8/7 tail feathers Morgan dollar. In addition, to date, I have been able to cherrypick three 1943/2 Jefferson nickels. One was in VG condition, and cost me a massive $.25, yes, twenty five cents. Another was in XF and I got it in a batch of junk war nickels. The last one, currently in an ANACS AU-50 holder, was also a junk silver find, and is valued at an easy $200.
As for the 1878 8/7 feathers Morgan dollar, yes. I have also cherried one of those. Back in 2002 (see not all finds were done long ago in the past), I managed to pick up one for a mere $15, in XF-45 condition. Value today? Look it up.
As for the Lincoln cent, no, I have never cherried one of those. So, they are still out there waiting for you to beat me to it.

Why I favor the design hub doubling:

Back around the mid-1970's I found a very strange war nickel. I kept it very safe and proceed to show it off to quite a number of dealers on Long Island, New York (where I live, naturally). In those days there was a coin shop in nearly every town, and no limit to the number of dealers to speak to about such items. The problem is that no one was interested in errors in those days, not that many dealers care about them today, unless they are showing off something like a 1955 DDO.
To make a long story shorter than it can be, I was told by everyone that it wasn’t an over date, since none were listed in the Guide Book of US coins. And, in those days, if it wasn’t in the Guide Book, well, it just wasn’t anything special.
So, I gave up, and, upon returning to college, put it away, along with my collecting days, for a number of years. Returning to collecting in the mid-1980's, I picked up a copy of the Guide book, and lo and behold, there it was a 1943/2 War nickel overdate listed in the Jefferson nickel section. Someone else got credit for discovering it, Del Romines I believe, and I had (in the interim) lost the war nickel that I had kept for so many years with a big ? On the flip.

The attached pictures are of:
#1: 1943?2 War nickel

and

#2: 1878 8/7 feathers reverse.
[note: not the strongest variety, but still there.]

Treashunt · 07-28-2009, 05:29 PM

Important note:
To those who may wonder, this [the 1943/2] is technically a doubled die.

As opposed to 19th century coins, this overdate was caused by the hubbing of the die.

In the 19th century the design elements were punched into the die indivudually, as in each digit of the date.
Therefor they are tuuly overdates, since (for example) a 7 may be punched by hand over the previous year's 6.

P.S. Thanks, Noost.

**TheNoost** · 07-28-2009, 07:30 PM

Great post!

USS656 · 07-28-2009, 07:42 PM

Great post Frank!

desertgem · 07-29-2009, 03:17 PM

With Frank's kind permission, I am posting shots of a 1960 example of a small date over a large date design doubling. There are also examples of large date over small dates. This is the 1960 D/D, small/over large date DDO.

The doubled die is most apparent here in the date.

But also in LIBERTY and parts of the IGWT where the 2 hubs did not match exactly.

Treashunt · 07-29-2009, 03:24 PM

Thank you for posting!

Great Pictures.

desertgem · 07-29-2009, 06:07 PM

Just received my August 3 copy of coin world and see they have a nice article on Lincoln Design doubling, showing the other combos besides the one above.

Jim

Treashunt · 07-29-2009, 06:43 PM

Jim:
I just signed on to mention the article from July that discussed the 1960 large/small and other varieties!

Mumbapuri · 07-30-2009, 10:40 AM

hi frank,
i have no idea about the tech like ddo, us coin book, life in 50s... but i like the way u make it sound and your drafting skills...
what r the chances that if i keep my humble support up for your wonderful work... u will spare some of these special coins for me

Nice work frank!

vipergts2 · 07-30-2009, 11:20 AM

Great article. One question though. How do you know if it is an overdate or hub doubling?

Treashunt · 07-30-2009, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vipergts2

Great article. One question though. How do you know if it is an overdate or hub doubling?

okay, Good question.

If the date is included in the hub, as it has been for over 100 years, (I'll check the exact date later), then it is hub doubling.

All 20th century 'overdates' are actually hub doubling:

1914/3 Buffalo nickel.
1918/7 D Buffalo.

1918/7 S Standling Lib quarter.

1943/2 Jefferson.

1942/1 P Merc
1942/1 D Merc.

All hub doubling.

vipergts2 · 07-30-2009, 01:02 PM

Thanks, I assume they used different hubs to recycle unused dies?

Paddy54 · 07-30-2009, 02:36 PM

Hey Frank thanks great post. Here's a real tear jerker of a roll find. it too is a 43 /2 with rev rotation 3-5% off.I found this in a solid roll of 43 P nickels my dad had in his safely deposit box. I had a fit with NGC over this one as my father worked in a bank and these were purchased right from the bank and never removed from the mint rolls until I broke it open. I was like a kid at Christmas. until it came back as improperly cleaned! I was like how? Dad worked in a bank for 47 years he never did anything with the coins but put them away and again a solid Crimpted roll ! I still don't beleive it...this roll sat like new for 63 years...and then hear oh your 43/2 is cleaned but a nice AU.

Sorry the pic's are off somewhat having batt problems with cam.

Conder101 · 07-30-2009, 04:40 PM

Quote:

In the 19th century the design elements were punched into the die indivudually, as in each digit of the date.

Individual date digits ended around 1840. After that they went to a four digit logotype punch.

Quote:

I still don't beleive it...this roll sat like new for 63 years...and then hear oh your 43/2 is cleaned but a nice AU.

That's their way of saying "we would like for you to pay a second grading fee before we will tell you what this really is."

acanthite · 07-30-2009, 09:53 PM

Nice post, very informative.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conder101

Individual date digits ended around 1840. After that they went to a four digit logotype punch.

In that case, in no occurrence of an RPD or MPD between 1841-1908 it is possible to have only one or two digits repunched for any US coin?

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