A cautionary tale

When I first started to collect, I gravitated towards the big sellers with multi-page ads in Coin World, etc, assuming that they must be REALLY GOOD dealers, to afford that much ad space. What I found out was that they were really good at making money off of naive collectors like myself. When I submitted 40 or so coins to a TPG for grading, I was introduced to the body bag concept, and found that many of my coins were hairlined from cleaning, and quite a few of those that were deemed slabworthy were in fact AU sliders, sold as BU. Lesson learned, avoid those sellers! Next, I thought, great coins must be found at bargain prices on eBay! My experience there has mostly been that eBay auctions can turn out to be an expensive approval service, and I have found that I really don't like standing in the Post Office line to return cleaned coins. I had thought that I could find nice, mid-grade original surface coins in series that I collect, like Seated, Barber halves, bust halves-- and you can, with patience, but so many of these turn out to be problem coins that I have become much more selective in my buying habits with the more expensive items (say over $50)
A few examples from my Hall of Shame:

1911 Barber Half:


Looks like nice, original gunmetal gray. however, it has been cleaned as evidenced by long vertical hairlines across the bust from top to bottom- not seen in mine or the auction photos. One might suspect a cleaning from the look of the right obverse fields, but nothing stands out. Still an attractive coin, but probably "worth" 1/3 less than what I paid.

Now this 1847-O half:




The reverse on this coin is actually prooflike, and quite lovely. The obverse is not, and I believe someone tried to make it so by polishing, which you can see as a hazy patch in the right obverse field. I did not detect this at the time of purchase, it wasn't very expensive, but with what I know now I am sorry I bought it.

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." As I gained confidence in my collecting, and became somewhat impatient to acquire more scarce or expensive items, I simply made more expensive mistakes. For example, this 1872 Dollar:




In hand, this is an attractive coin.Seller's photos looked good. It is somewhat bright, suggesting a prior dip, but that's no crime (to me, anyway!) It has AU details, and a goodly amount of luster. however, under bright light, with a lens, hairlines can again be seen crossing the fields and devices, cutting through all that juicy luster. Another "genuine" candidate.

Finally, I have this 1864 Double Eagle, purchased simply as "uncirculated." Technically speaking, I don't believe it ever saw circulation, but the obverse doesn't cartwheel due to many patches of hairlines in a number of directions. The reverse is only marred by a patch of hairlines near the bottom, and cartwheels beautifully. What looks like wear on the obverse is actually due to the crisscrossing of hairlines on the high points, which under magnification have 'muted' luster. Fortunately, I paid about low AU money for it, but I wish it had a nicer look. I had suspicions when it arrived, but did not trust my skills enough to make a decision to return it. (Listen to your gut-- it is wise!)




So what have I learned? If you buy raw coins at auction without having a chance to inspect them first, anticipate that many will have problems. If you don't mind using eBay as an approval service, fine, but be prepared to spend a lot of time and money returning coins you don't want. I have no problems with "old" cleanings per se, if not overdone, I just want to pay what is appropriate for the condition. I now buy almost all of my costlier coins in top tier TPG holders, they aren't perfect but they are a good screen against many problems.

Sorry to be long winded. I hope this thread is of use to new collectors, and others please feel free to add you own comments, stories, and words of wisdom!

 

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You describe some interesting experiences, and I commend you for acknowledging your mistakes.Years ago, i bought a set of "BU" BTW half dollars from one fo the big advertisers, received a bunch of cleaned junk (mostly AUs) and returned the set for a refund. I received a phone call advising "Mr. Sims will send you some better coins". He did, but they were marginal too.

You have too much trust in Ebay sellers, and they don't readily honor returns for a refund. When you think about it, it is very risky to send money across the country to a stranger and rely on blind faith. The Paypal guaranty is not worth much, is limited on the bottom and top end, and the claims process is cumbersome and slow, at best.

In coins, I beleive it always is caveat emptor. The best bet is to buy big 3 certified coins from a reputable dealer, and even that is not without risk. Know your coins and you should fare fairly well.

 

I've learned that the more I learn, the more there is to learn.

Buying slabbed is an okay step up from buying raw from the full page magazine ads. However it is only one or two steps up, and still has potential for many problems. There is still much to learn when buying slabbed. Not all MS65s are created equal. There is a often a wide variance in quality within a single grading point, even from one company. Add several companies to the mix, and there can be a stunningly wide variance in quality. Not all slabbed coins are problem free. The term "market acceptable" is bandied about for slabbed coins that may be questionable by some.

The real defense is to learn how to grade, and how to spot problem coins. This will take some time, and is much better done in person, like at a coin show, than buying via mail or Internet auction.

Learning to grade is a process. So while many may never become expert graders, almost all can improve their skill with time and effort.

 

Thanks to both of you for making some important points. If a collector is going to buy raw coins, he or she needs to be proficient at grading AND recognizing problems, and to understand that photographs are a poor substitute for an in-hand examination. If buying graded coins- particularly MS coins- understanding the fine points of "grades within a grade" (as eloquently laid out by Lehigh in one of his superb threads) is essential if one wishes to purchase high-quality specimens. Unfortunately, as mentioned, this is where "market acceptable" rears its head. CAC may be of some help in this regard, particularly for a type collector who doesn't have the time to become expert in multiple series. As Red Tiger points out, there is no substitute for examining multiple specimens of coins you are interested in at a show- Dr. Eugene Bruder, for example, was a great help to me in learning to grade Peace Dollars, at a show I attended last year.

 

You got my nomination.

When I first got started, I was at a store chatting with the dealer and buying Barber Dimes. I was not paying much attention to the coins, accepting them as 2x2ed... VF... Fine... XF... Good... After I got them home and looked at them, I got an Edmund Scientific catalog and spent as much on lenses as I lost on the coins. I do not blame the dealer. He did not grade them all. They were just is stock at the moment. I had every opportunity to ask him his opinion and I did not. He really did give me good pointers on many occasions at other times. It was my own fault for not using an available resource.

It was the "supermarket mentality." I just bought what was offered prima facie. If I had seen myself as a the purchasing agent of a corporation, I would have engaged more due diligence.

Lesson learned.

 

Great post, and scary. I don't see some of the hairlines and these photos are not small. I have been bodybagged on hairlines myself that weren't that easy to detect.

 

In the coin business when we see a raw coin that looks nice on a first look... I always think to myself, "why isn't this coin already in a slab?" I mean economy service for a dealer is $11 a coin or so... I know low end stuff this doesn't really apply to but mid range stuff and up... if it's not already graded there is probably a reason and looking a little harder at the coin is always advised... %90 plus of the time it was either cracked out of a lower grade holder or it's a former BB'ed coin.

 

I think what you are attempting to do is the hardest part of coin collecting, assembling a slabbed collection by purchasing raw coins. If you were trying modern coins you would see that even with those many coins don't generally grade as high as the numbers show, however with the classic coins is is even far more difficult that that.

The 20 dollar gold coin appears to have uneven toning that someone attempted to clean probably recently. It's a shame that people do this to coins, if only it had been slabbed earlier.

 

Very good points by the last two posters. Yes, most of the higher value quality coins have been graded by one of the top services-- and if you see raw ones, especially on eBAy, you REALLY have to ask yourself quite objectively, "What's wrong with it?" Seller's photos won't necessarily show the problem- even my photos don't show the cleaning lines on some of these, with no intent to conceal them-- and if you decide you can live with a problem coin, you have to practice strict bid discipline and bid not one cent higher than you think the coin is worth-- which means you have to 1) assume the worst about the item 2)ignore what others are bidding 3)control your desire to own a scarce item and 4) suppress the urge to get a "bargain." It is very difficult to develop that kind of self control.

 

To do what the OP has done and opened their numismatic komono takes real guts. I salute you.

 

The coin has an original patina that gold that has not been cleaned develops, I think that your one coin you have there that has some toning on it is original too, even with the hairlines.
(The 1872 dollar with toning)

You can see what appear to be hairlines in this photo, but these are most likely from circulation.

 

I'm glad you like the 1872 dollar, I do too, except when you examine it with the light at just the right angle, you see the parallel hairlines going all the way across both sides, from being wiped with a mild abrasive. They are virtually invisible unless photographed specifically to reveal them, which would require some contortions with my light setup. It is simply a fact that you cannot tell whether a coin is cleaned or not from photos, much of the time, and you will get burned, as I did, when you buy based solely on the apparent grade. I have decided that the number of problem coins I would have to wade through in online auctions, to find one real "bargain," is just too high.

 

Sorry, I rearranged some photos in my photobucket albums, and lost the links to the first post. Since I am now unable to edit that post, I will post the images here for reference:

1911-s Barber half:


1847-O half:


1872 Seated Dollar:

 

BTW, hairlines-aside that seated dollar ain't that bad, and is more attractive than most of them, IMO.

 

Thanks, I'm glad you like it. If I were to have it slabbed, it would probably make it into one of the DGS "lightly cleaned" holders, LOL.

 

Another early purchase, an 1827 bust half. I bought it raw, it was bright white, I sent it in to the "old" ICG with a bunch of other stuff, and it came back in an AU53 holder! At that time, ICG would not slab problem coins, and probably half the coins I sent in came back ungraded, usually as 'cleaned.' Maybe they just took pity on me. Anyway, there is no doubt in my mind that this coin is cleaned, and overly bright from dip. So, beware the "blast white" early coins.

 

Another danger of buying raw coins: PVC! here is an 1883 V-nickel I bought a couple of years ago. Somehow it wound up in the sdb in a soft flip! So, the problem could be all mine, or the coin could have been reacting in the flip well before I bought it. Anyway, watch out for PVC on anything you buy! Photos taken just before dumping it into acetone.

 

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I applaud your honesty.

I had to smile a bit when I read all of the comments about those dealers who take out 2 page ads in the major coin publications. Ordering from them is like rolling the dice. I'm a bit surprised they can still advertise the way they do.

My experience with them:

1) They have a real broad hodge-podge of quality. Sometimes I'll get a decent coin and sometimes I'll get cleaned sliders sold as BU. I know this because I've sent some of their coins in for grading. Some get decent grades (typically 62, but once I actually got a 64 Peace dollar). But I've also gotten AU58 cleaned that was sold as BU or other problem coins. The strangest one I got was a Peace dollar with filed rims! Are you kidding? Filed rims? I've never heard of that before.

2) They usually are good about taking returns, but once I returned a cleaned coin to get a coin with grafitti on it. When I returned that, I just got a refund check back.

3) When I get a decent coin, I try to stick with that dealer. But to my chagrin, my next order is a problem coin. So there's inconsistency in the quality.

4) Because of my experiences, I never order BU coins from them anymore. I only get mint products or nice circulated grades. IMHO, I think it's a better deal to get a roll of circulated Morgans in Fine to VF condition than the BU (supposedly) offers.

So the bottom line is to be smart and return anything that is unacceptable. But to be fair, sometimes you do get good coins. I ordered a pair of Mexican pesos last month that were frosty and clearly uncirculated, so they can sell good stuff. As always, buyer beware.

Good luck to all.

Steve

 

Thanks for sharing your experiences. Some of the BU coins I submitted came back as MS62-63, so they were properly described, but they were fairly common Morgans. On the real keys, though, I could almost count on the BU ones being AU sliders. I once placed a $4,000 order with a seller whose name can be re-arranged to spell "slum pisa" and wound up returning the whole thing. Most egregious was an xf, cleaned $3 Indian described as 'BU' and also a stripped AU Trade Dollar billed as "BU." My 1886 nickel bought as BU was rejected by ICG as 'cleaned.' Another time, they sent me a reverse mm Walker instead of the scarcer obverse mm I had paid for. It was months before I detected the problem, and I had had the coin slabbed. To their credit, the seller took the coin back and sent me an acceptable replacement. So much for the multi-page ad sellers that CW loves and tolerates because of the ad revenues. Another one of numismatics "dirty little secrets" that (wink, wink) Everyone knows about except the new collector. Hopefully, forums like this one can change collector behavior.

 

thanks for sharing experience

Thanks for your post ksparrow. Wow, I'd be pretty upset if that happened to me on such a large order. But glad that you rectified it. I thought they'd do better with the larger orders.

Anyway, I am very selective with my buying now, so at least we're better collectors for it. I just hope that a bad experience doesn't scare away a new collector for good.