1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set - The First Branch Mint Cent - Page 2

xtrmbrdr · 07-04-2009, 06:28 PM

Great post, I bookmarked it! My only gripe with the ANA grading book is that it is not in color, so when I see something like this in color it's always a keeper. Thanks and welcome!

desertgem · 07-04-2009, 06:28 PM

Actually the most interesting one to me was the "questionable color" one. Beautiful coin. The color sure didn't seem very off to me. However, I wasn't surprised . I suspect when it gets a little more tone on the edges, it would do OK.

Jim

illini420 · 07-04-2009, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by desertgem

Actually the most interesting one to me was the "questionable color" one. Beautiful coin. The color sure didn't seem very off to me. However, I wasn't surprised . I suspect when it gets a little more tone on the edges, it would do OK.

Jim

Thanks Jim. I think it's a beautiful example as well but I think PCGS got it right. I bought this one in a local auction a few years ago as a raw coin before I really knew what red copper was supposed to look like.

It was advertised in the sale catalogue as a "superb" example. I would guess that a coin like this one would fool maybe 8 out of 10 folks who haven't really looked at lots of full red Indian Head Cents. Especially those looking at San Francisco IHCs as they typically have a lighter and more orange color than the Philadelphia examples. In a side by side comparison with my MS64RD example though, it's pretty clear that the .91 Genuine example has been messed with to some degree.

It's still a nice coin though and I keep it to remind me (and hopefully others too) to be careful when buying high graded coins that have not been certified, especially if you really don't know the series.

ldhair · 07-04-2009, 10:13 PM

Great thread and welcome.

illini420 · 07-04-2009, 11:52 PM

Would love to see some pics of your 1908-S Indian Head Cents too!! So post them if you got them

Here's a few more that I bought raw and sent in for grading recently. They came back F12, VF30 and VF35.

Not sure why the color of the coins came out so weird in these photos, I'm still learning

coinman0456 · 07-05-2009, 01:34 AM

Absolutely, a wonderful Date/MM collection. S Mint collector here.

Boss · 07-05-2009, 03:25 AM

I am very impressed by your set!!!! I think the G6 should have BB due to the obvious freshly exposed copper from the scratches on the lower reverse. The VG 10 and the F 12 are interesting because the date is better on the VG 10. The date is a key diagnostic criteria so I think these coins should be switched on the grade. The 63 RD is interesting with the spots. I guess it got bumped down due to the spots. Thanks for sharing and always fun to see CU people over here. A warm welcome.

illini420 · 07-06-2009, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boss

the G6 should have BB due to the obvious freshly exposed copper from the scratches on the lower reverse.

The VG 10 and the F 12 are interesting because the date is better on the VG 10.

The 63 RD is interesting with the spots. I guess it got bumped down due to the spots.

I sort of agree with your comments about the G06. I would love to find a better looking example w/o the exposed copper, but I think there are only about 10 others in this grade so it won't be easy. I showed the coin to a couple of dealers who deal in copper and a couple said the fresh rub wasn't a big deal and a couple of others didn't like it. I guess the graders that day didn't mind.

I don't necessarily agree that the VG10 and F12 should be flipped grades, but I do think the VG10 is undergraded as it has F15 details on the obverse. However, the reverse of the VG10 is more worn (see the shield area on the reverse). I'm thinking this coin was net graded.

Similar to my G06, I'd love to have a better example of an MS63RD, but there are only around a dozen others that exist so I took the first one I could find. It's got an awesome strike to it and has very very few hits. However, if it didn't have spots it wouldn't be a 63RD but instead a 64+. Most IHCs graded 63RD aren't too pretty to look at, otherwise they would be 64RDs. I'm sure there are exceptions to that rule though. Generally an MS62 coin would have issues too, but my 62BN is one of my favorites!!

illini420 · 07-07-2009, 04:18 PM

One member sent me a private message the other day to point out that I was missing a PCGS AU58 for my set. Well, yeah, I know that already

But I thought it might be informative and helpful to some here to share my response to that member as to the reason why I don't have an AU58 just yet.

In short, I think that the AU58 grade is special in that there is a huge range in what a certified AU58 can look like. My goal is to find a coin that is really looks like a MS64RB or MS64BN that just has the smallest hint of rub that makes it an AU58. There are definitely coins like that out there graded AU58 that look much better than MS62s or even MS63s but they can be hard to find. Here's an example of a great PCGS AU58 which I missed out on eBay a couple months ago as someone beat me to it:

On the other hand, there are a lot of ugly looking coins in AU58 slabs that might technically be AU58s, but don't have anywhere near the eye appeal of their MS63/64 counterparts. An example would be this PCGS AU58 that was on eBay a couple months ago which I passed on:

The two coins pictured here actually sold for about the same amount on eBay, but I think most would agree that the first won is worth significantly more.

As many of you will know, the fact that all AU58s are not equal doesn't just apply to IHCs. Several months ago a very very nice AU58 1909-O Barber quarter sold at auction for $4025 (Greysheet is around $500 or so). I paid less than that for my PCGS MS64 example. The buyer of that AU58 apparently thought that particular coin had the appeal of a nice mint state example. For reference, PCGS Guide values on an MS64 are $4300.

Accordingly, if you can find one of the great looking AU58s that is priced at AU money, you're stealing it!!!!! I know folks that exclusively collect very nice examples of AU coins and their sets actually look better than a lot of mint state sets but at a fraction of the cost.

Come on everyone, let's see some more 1908-S IHCs!!!!!!!

illini420 · 07-15-2009, 01:40 AM

Was searching through my photobucket pics and came across some of my old 1908-S IHCs and figured my MS63RBs would be worth of a post here.

The first MS63RB I purchased was when I first started collecting higher grade copper and before I knew what a messed with coin looked like. Instead, I was focusing only on the grade on the holder and on the price of the coin. This example has absolutely zero luster but has a decent strike. I'd bet that if this had been cracked and resubmitted 10 times, 9 of those times it would come back in a Genuine .91 holder for artificial color.

Once I saw more what RB copper was supposed to look like, I started to search for a better example of an MS63RB. Though this next coin cost about $100-$120 more than the above example, I think it's worth it as it's much more original and I think would maybe go 64RB had it not had the old faded fingerprint on it. This is the example I still have in my set:

Just another example that you cannot rely solely on the grades set forth on the slab. Both of the coins above were imaged at the same time under exactly the same lighting and I think the photos accurately show how the coins look in hand. I would strongly recommend that anyone new to collecting RB or RD copper should look at a few dozen coins before even thinking of purchasing their first so that they can learn what a good example looks like.

Thanks for looking

illini420 · 08-13-2009, 02:31 AM

I really wish this forum would allow folks to update/edit old posts, but anyways, I was able to "upgrade" my old AU55 example with a new one that I bought at the ANA show here in L.A.

This new example (picture 1) looks much much better than the previous example (picture 2) which I believe to have been messed with in some way as it just has a very unnatural glossy look to it to sort of fake luster. Just another good example of why to buy the coin itself and not necessarily the grade stamped on the plastic holder as these two are definitely not equal coins.

New AU55:

Old AU55:

Thanks again everyone for the comments and I'd like to see more of you post there 1908-S Indian Cents... I'm sure some of you have one somewhere????

CrustyCoins · 08-13-2009, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by illini420

I really wish this forum would allow folks to update/edit old posts

I have this same gripe and am going to ask our host about this.

CrustyCoins · 08-13-2009, 03:39 AM

Welcome and you might know me a bit better as BECOKA over at the CU.

justafarmer · 08-13-2009, 09:49 AM

Coins 97 and 98 returned genuine environmental damage - give me a break for Christ's sake. They are VG coins - of course they have environmental damage.

illini420 · 08-13-2009, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justafarmer

Coins 97 and 98 returned genuine environmental damage - give me a break for Christ's sake. They are VG coins - of course they have environmental damage.

Not sure I agree with you... take a closer look at each of the coins and compare to the graded examples near the top of the first post.

The Genuine 97 coin was not graded because of "Environmental Damage" which for copper coins usually means corrosion. This coin, while it does have VG details, does also exhibit some corrosion which is evident with the pitting in the fields. I agree with PCGS not grading this coin as a VG.

The Genuine 98 coin was not graded because of "Damage." I actually think this coin would be an easy VF coin and looks pretty good, but PCGS says it's not gradable because it is damaged. There are a couple of deep hits (almost like punch marks) under the A and T of STATES on the obverse as well as the scratch above Liberty's eye. Again, I agree with PCGS not grading this coin.

I appreciate PCGS being tough on these two for the above reasons as if I were ever buying these coins sight unseen or on poor photos (which I do not recommend) I would be upset with either of the Genuine 97 or 98 coins if I were expecting coins that looks like my VG10 or my VF30 instead.

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