Longacre Doubling: Some considerations

Treashunt · 06-29-2009, 01:32 PM

LONGACRE DOUBLING

To start with: who was James B. Longacre? Christian Gobrecht, designer of the famous (and valuable) Gobrecht dollars, was the chief engraver at the US mint, and died in 1844. The opening provided a place for James B (Barton) Longacre. The first design that Longacre provided was the Flying Eagle cent of 1856 to 1858. Although the design was very short lived, today it is extremely popular with collectors (this design is important, as we will see later). Among other designs that Longacre produced for circulating coinage were the Liberty Head used on the gold $1 (1849 to1854) and $20 Liberty Head (1849 to 1907), the Indian Princess gold $1 and $3 of 1854 to 1889, the shield design on the two cent piece (1864 to 1873); the Shield Nickel (1866-1883); the silver three cent piece (1851-1873); the nickel three cent piece (1865-1889) and, perhaps most importantly, the Indian head cent ((1859 to 1909).

To put it mildly, James Longacre had an important effect on the design and style of the coinage of the United States. His art work lived long after his death on January 1, 1869, when he was succeeded by William Barber, father of Charles Barber (who designed the coinage that was produced from 1892 to 1916, and was often mocked as a hack).

Back to the subject at hand: what is Longacre doubling? On many of his designs, most notably the Indian Head cents of 1859 to 1909, and many Seated Liberty coins (although those are actually designed by Christian Gobrecht, the effects are the same) there is a notable doubling of the design elements on many coins. For beginners (and advanced collectors alike) this doubling is often encountered on the legends. Easily encountered examples are on high grade Indian Head cents, in the “United States” legend. Close examination will reveal an apparent doubling to the legend.
There is usually a clear ‘doubling’ to the letters. This doubling is commonly on BOTH sides of a letter, surrounding it almost like a halo. As opposed to the more ubiquitous machine (mechanical, strike) doubling of all time periods, the ‘Longacre Doubling is rounded and there is a clear ‘secondary image’ to the ‘so-called doubling’. As you examine the secondary image, using a 10 X lens is usually sufficient, you will see that the apparent doubling often surrounds both sides of the letters, and occasionally the design elements.

But, what could possibly cause this effect? There are theories, but no definitive answers. The first, and most popular reason is the master die was placed into the die steel to form the master die. In order to add details, the engraver would shave the sides of the die punch , leaving a lip on the punch’s sides. The engraver could have added an ‘extra hard punch’ to the punch thereby leaving the shaved sides effect to the die.
This added effect would eventually wear off as the die was used, and that is why not all coins from that die will show the effect. Apparently those with the effect are earlier strikes from the die. Then there is the second theory.
After punching the design elements into the master die the engraver would move the punch a microscopic bit. This would produce a ‘lip’ on the die, and the effect would be to enable the metal to flow more easily into the devices in the die. The theory is that this improvement to the design striking would also have prolonged the life of the dies.
Remember, this effect was added to the master die, not individual dies, and as such is not a doubled die, that is because the master die is only hubbed one time, and that, by definition cannot produce a doubled die. Use of a die would wear away the effect, as would die polishing, since the Longacre effect ‘doubling’ is delicate and not intended to be reproduced as a part fo the design, but, rather, for improving the strike of the coins.

Which theory you may accept is dependent upon your own ideas of the mint’s workings at the time. However, regardless of which one you accept, remember, there is ‘no added value’ for Longacre doubling. This becomes especially apparent when you realize that it is as a result of the master die. So, therefore, all dies produced for that master die will have the effect.

Important note: There are doubled dies in the series above, especially on the Shield nickel series. This doubling is not a part of the above discussion, and is very collectible. For more information on Shield nickel doubled dies, there are numerous references that discuss them, including Cherrypickers Guide.

Obverse Star on an 1850 O $1/2 showing the Longacre Doubling as discussed.

The first A in America on the Reverse of an 1850 O

1877 CC Seated $1/2 Star on the Obverse

The T in United on an 1877 CC Seated $1/2.

tmoneyeagles · 06-29-2009, 01:51 PM

Great post Frank... Now time to read it again

just coins · 06-29-2009, 02:49 PM

That's alot of typing Frank i give you credit nice post

JC

Treashunt · 06-29-2009, 02:51 PM

Thank you, JC.

Treashunt · 06-29-2009, 03:24 PM

As requested:
T$, I'll try to do that.

This is the only one that I have right now:

As you can see, both images are the same height.
But, this is not the best one to view, since the letters are very close.

I will have to take some more for you.

Frank

physics-fan3.14 · 06-29-2009, 04:24 PM

It should be emphasized that Longacre doubling, like the machine doubling discussed last week, is not a true doubled die. "Doubled die" refers only to hub doubling, and I'm hoping you devote a lengthy thread to hub doubling somewhere in this excellent series, Frank.

Longacre doubling is very common since it occurs on the master die, and adds no premium to a coin. Sometimes, specatular and exciting examples showing severe Longacre doubling on almost all elements will show up - if you are going to try and collect one, these are the pieces to wait for.

Great job!

desertgem · 06-29-2009, 05:08 PM

It is important to remember that the 3 discussed ( Longacre, machine, and Hub ) doubling effects are not exclusive of each other. A cent with Longacre can also be a true doubled die ( I have one someplace..if I can find it) or there can be machine doubling with a true hub doubling, or machine with Longacre. I have seen these. I have never seen all 3 types on one, but I am sure there are some. Combos will drive you a little nutty and put it on a forum, and you will get a lot of arguments.

I have seen coins on forums that were dismissed quickly because someone recognized machine doubling and assumed all effects were from that, and most were, but it could mean missing a true (hub) doubled die.

Nice article!

Jim

Treashunt · 06-29-2009, 05:14 PM

Jim
agreed, a coin with longacre doubling can also be a DDO (or DDR).

Most commonly Shield Nickels

vipergts2 · 06-29-2009, 05:56 PM

Very good read. That explains why a lot of my three cent nickels have the apparent doubling.

tmoneyeagles · 06-29-2009, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treashunt

As requested:
T$, I'll try to do that.

This is the only one that I have right now:

As you can see, both images are the same height.
But, this is not the best one to view, since the letters are very close.

I will have to take some more for you.

Frank

It is still hard to see what separates a DD, from Longacre doubling, and even machine doubling.
They are all doubling to me, and look the same, and I can't really see a difference.

physics-fan3.14 · 06-29-2009, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmoneyeagles

It is still hard to see what separates a DD, from Longacre doubling, and even machine doubling.
They are all doubling to me, and look the same, and I can't really see a difference.

The big difference between the appearance of Longacre and Machine doubling is machine doubling will usually be on one side of the affected element, whereas Longacre will often be around the entire element.

Another important difference is that Longacre doubling is on the die, whereas MDD occurs during striking. This means MDD will usually be shinier than the surrounding areas - whereas Longacre will be seemless with the surrounding surfaces.

The look of these two is very different. Understanding the difference between how they occur helps understand the difference in how they appear.

tmoneyeagles · 06-29-2009, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by physics-fan3.14

The big difference between the appearance of Longacre and Machine doubling is machine doubling will usually be on one side of the affected element, whereas Longacre will often be around the entire element.

Another important difference is that Longacre doubling is on the die, whereas MDD occurs during striking. This means MDD will usually be shinier than the surrounding areas - whereas Longacre will be seemless with the surrounding surfaces.

The look of these two is very different. Understanding the difference between how they occur helps understand the difference in how they appear.

Okay I can see how they can be different, but what separates a DD from Longacre Doubling? Aren't both of those on the die? So what separates those two?

physics-fan3.14 · 06-29-2009, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmoneyeagles

Okay I can see how they can be different, but what separates a DD from Longacre Doubling? Aren't both of those on the die? So what separates those two?

A world of difference: Longacre doubling is an area around the individual elements resulting from the hand punch being punched too hard (one theory). Hub doubling results when the die is being pressed - during the second pressing, the die might be shifted slightly for a number of reasons. They are completely different, and have completely different appearances.

tmoneyeagles · 06-29-2009, 10:47 PM

The difference can still not be seen to me, and it is really bothering me.
I don't understand a lot of things about errors in general.

So I know that machine doubling is the die, slightly shifted while the planchet is being struck.
The doubled die, is when the die is being pressed with the design, and the die itself shifts, so parts of the lettering, or other parts of the design get doubled on the die, and that transfers over to the planchet
So now, I am just trying to tackle the difference between the Longacre Doubling and Doubled Die

physics-fan3.14 · 06-29-2009, 11:01 PM

It can be tricky when you're first learning, I'll give you that. So many terms, so many things to remember, so many different processes and looks and effects and whatnot. But be patient, you'll get the hang of it in time.

Welcome to Coin Talk! Register Now, it's easy and FREE!