Question on re-submitting proofs

Vess1 · 10-14-2008, 06:54 PM

If you re-submit a proof to NGC in order to get it removed from a bad, old holder and have it put into one of their new holders, how would they put a PF70 coin into the new holder? Obviously they would have to touch the surface with something to get it out of the old one which I assume could leave hair lines on it?? Worth the risk if you want something re-holdered?

gmarguli · 10-15-2008, 02:02 AM

The inner cores bend and allow the coin to be removed easily.

rlm's cents · 10-15-2008, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Obviously they would have to touch the surface with something to get it out of the old one which I assume could leave hair lines on it??

Think about that a minute. You are worried about how they are going to get it out, but how did they get in in in the first place? BTW, I am sure they have their ways.

Now the real question is is it worth it. I do not know how you are planning to handle this, but shipping can wind up being more than the grading fees let alone a reholdering fee.

HazardJoe · 10-15-2008, 02:33 AM

This question makes me think of my question:

How does one properly insert any coin into a whitman album?

Vess1 · 10-15-2008, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HazardJoe

This question makes me think of my question:

How does one properly insert any coin into a whitman album?

If I put something in an album, it's likely MS64 or less. I have been told that is still alters the surface to a degree, but IMO, I haven't done anything that's any worse than what's already on the coin. Possible marks at a microscopic level would be all.

PF70s to me, would be a whole different ball game. I just didn't know how they would go about trying to get one out and re-holder it.

I was thinking about bidding on something that was pretty low, I'm guessing because there was a scratch on the slab. I decided I didn't want to mess with it.

**FreakyGarrettC** · 10-15-2008, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vess1

If I put something in an album, it's likely MS64 or less. I have been told that is still alters the surface to a degree, but IMO, I haven't done anything that's any worse than what's already on the coin. Possible marks at a microscopic level would be all.

PF70s to me, would be a whole different ball game. I just didn't know how they would go about trying to get one out and re-holder it.

I was thinking about bidding on something that was pretty low, I'm guessing because there was a scratch on the slab. I decided I didn't want to mess with it.

I was trying to put quarters in an album once and my mom told me to use a rolling pen.

rzage · 10-15-2008, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreakyGarrettC

I was trying to put quarters in an album once and my mom told me to use a rolling pen.

Heck when I was your age I shined a Morgan Dollar using mercury out of an old thermometer .
rzage

ziggy9 · 10-15-2008, 01:50 PM

Hazard Joe
If you are talking the folders I use a ball peen hammer! :}

rzage · 10-15-2008, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziggy9

Hazard Joe
If you are talking the folders I use a ball peen hammer! :}

Ziggy hope you're using the ball end it makes a smaller mark

rzage

900fine · 10-15-2008, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vess1

Worth the risk if you want something re-holdered?

My understanding is there is no risk. They will not downgrade the coin when reholdering if submitted in the original holder. If it was in a PR70 holder in, it will be in a PR70 holder out... even if overgraded to begin with.

They're not regrading the coin, merely replacing their own holder.

A whole new set of questions arises "What if they truly mess up the coin during handling ?" My understanding is they fully guarantee for the market value of the coin.

Since their entire business involves handling hundreds of thousands of coins, I'm sure they're quite good at handling them without messing them up.

gmarguli · 10-15-2008, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 900fine

My understanding is there is no risk. They will not downgrade the coin when reholdering if submitted in the original holder. If it was in a PR70 holder in, it will be in a PR70 holder out... even if overgraded to begin with.

They're not regrading the coin, merely replacing their own holder.

NGC reviews all coins submitted for reholdering for grade also. If the coin won't meet the grade currently assigned, they will refuse to reholder it or downgrade it and provide compensation provided it qualifies under the grade guarantee.

900fine · 10-15-2008, 10:55 PM

Interesting ! Thanks for the clarification, Greg.

Which poses a few questions :

1) Does PCGS have a similar policy ?

2) Under what conditions would a downgraded, reholdered coin receive no compensation ? Why would a coin not qualify under the grade guarantee ?

3) Normally, regrading fees (with submitter's intent to upgrade) are "tier price" (usually $16 to $30). But reholdering (with potential to downgrade) only costs $5.

It seems NGC incurs the same "costs of doing business" either way. Seems they're losing money providing a grading process for $5.

So what is the financial driving force ? Removing undergraded coins from the market to protect reputation ?

4) Does the submitter have an option ? Can they choose between keeping the coin in the current holder or accepting compensation ?

5) Why don't they mention this "downgrade potential" on their website ? That's an important detail there. The way they describe it implies it is just a mechanical "replace the slab" process, not a numismatic "grade the coin" process.

As always, thanks for the input.

gmarguli · 10-15-2008, 11:45 PM

1) Does PCGS have a similar policy ?

Not sure, but I believe that reholders are looked at by a grader.

2) Under what conditions would a downgraded, reholdered coin receive no compensation ? Why would a coin not qualify under the grade guarantee ?

NGC has a poor guarantee for coins minted with copper. A coin that was graded 20 years ago as MS65RD and is now MS65RB or MS64RB would not qualify for their guarantee.

3) Normally, regrading fees (with submitter's intent to upgrade) are "tier price" (usually $16 to $30). But reholdering (with potential to downgrade) only costs $5.

It seems NGC incurs the same "costs of doing business" either way. Seems they're losing money providing a grading process for $5.

So what is the financial driving force ? Removing undergraded coins from the market to protect reputation ?

NGC offers downgrade review for free. If you feel a coin is overgraded you can send it back and have it looked at for free.

A true regrade where you want an upgrade is where the coin is removed from the slab and goes thru the grading process again and will be examined by a full set of graders. The reholder is examined by only one grader, I believe. There is zero chance for an upgrade with a reholder.

4) Does the submitter have an option ? Can they choose between keeping the coin in the current holder or accepting compensation ?

Maybe. I've heard of both submitters being contacted before anything was done and coins being downgraded without notice and the submitters being contacted afterward.

5) Why don't they mention this "downgrade potential" on their website ? That's an important detail there. The way they describe it implies it is just a mechanical "replace the slab" process, not a numismatic "grade the coin" process.

No idea. I suspect that there is language about this potential on the submission forms or perhaps in the dealer agreement.

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