CoinTalk

Welcome to Coin Talk! Register Now, it's easy and FREE!

Thousands of coin collectors, numismatists, coin dealers, bullion investors, and enthusiasts make Coin Talk their number one source for numismatic news, information about US and world coins, discussions and community.

You are currently viewing Coin Talk as a guest, which limits your access to content, contests and information. By joining our free community, you will be able to join in discussions, contact other members, place free advertisements, enter contests, and much more. Registration is easy and free. Register Now


Go Back   CoinTalk > Coin Forums > Coin Chat

Notices

Coin Chat Please use this section for discussion of numismatic topics that don't fit in other sections.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 03-27-2008, 04:05 PM   #1 (permalink)
Majored in Morganology
 
DJCoinz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 2,739
My Mood:
Send a message via AIM to DJCoinz
Exclamation PCGS Statement on Counterfeit holders

Link

COUNTERFEIT PCGS HOLDERS

- March 27, 2008


In recent days, counterfeit coins in counterfeit PCGS slabs have begun to appear on eBay, the online auction site. All of the counterfeit coins/holders seen so far are coming out of China. Alert members of the PCGS Message Boards were the first to notify PCGS of the counterfeit coins/holders.

The coins themselves range from poor-quality counterfeits to well-made fakes. The counterfeit PCGS holders are well-executed, but with minor differences from a genuine holder. PCGS anticipates that authentic coins will eventually be placed into counterfeit PCGS holders in the future, perhaps with elevated grades and/or inappropriate designators (Full Bell Lines, Prooflike, etc.), although none have been seen to date.

The on-line PCGS Certificate Verification is a method for confirming that a particular certificate number matches the information in the PCGS database, but the counterfeiters are aware of this detection method and are now using valid certificate numbers (see below).

PCGS has contacted U.S. governmental agencies, including the FBI, U.S. Customs, the Secret Service, and US Postal authorities, to enlist their assistance in pursuing enforcement or legal remedies against these counterfeiters. Also, PCGS is a member of eBay's CCW Group, which monitors eBay for fraudulent listings and asks eBay to discontinue auctions of suspicious coins and/or suspend violators.

PCGS has called for eBay to stop accepting listings of any rare coins from Chinese sellers. Ebay recently pulled several auctions of counterfeit coins/holders at the urging of PCGS.

PCGS urges consumers not to purchase rare coins from Chinese sellers on eBay. While legitimate, authentic coins exist in China, the plethora of fakes and fraudulent listings on eBay increase the likelihood that coins purchased from Chinese sellers will be counterfeit.

The PCGS Guarantees of Grade and Authenticity do not apply to counterfeit holders, but PCGS has a strong interest in assisting consumers in actions against any fraudulent sellers.

Sufficient differences exist between genuine and counterfeit holders such that PCGS experts can easily identify fake holders. Consumers are cautioned that coins that appear to be underpriced may be counterfeit. PCGS urges all consumers to deal only with reputable sellers who are willing to stand behind the coins they sell.

PCGS recommends consumers consider the following any time they make a coin purchase:

1. Verify the certificate number using the PCGS Cert Verification program at http://www.pcgs.com/cert/
See limitations above
2. Avoid purchasing rare coins from eBay sellers in China.
3. Investigate the legitimacy of the seller (examine feedback; avoid low feedback sellers; find out how long the seller has been in business; do they have a good reputation?; do you have legal recourse in case of a problem?).
4. Make sure you have a money-back guarantee that is enforceable (for example, credit card companies will often assist in cases of fraud).
5. Realize that "bargains" in numismatics are usually too good to be true.
6. If you have a question about a particular coin, be sure to have it checked out by an Authorized PCGS Dealer or by PCGS before the expiration of any guarantees.
7. Request an immediate refund if the coin you purchased turns out to be a counterfeit.

The following list of coins and certificate numbers have been seen in fake PCGS holders:

China (1916) Silver Dollar, Y-332, Cert #10712316 (valid)
China (1923) Silver Dollar, K-677, Cert #11354470 (valid)
China (1923) Silver Dollar, K-678, Cert #11285683 (valid)
China (1923) Silver Dollar, Y-336.1, Cert #13835186 (valid)
China Republic (1912) 20 Cents, Cert #21981173 (invalid)
China (1916) Gold Dollar, Pn-44, Cert # 11072163 (invalid)
China (1923) Gold Dollar, Tsao Kun, K-677, Cert #11354470 (invalid spec, valid cert…used above)
US 1858-O Half Dollar, Cert #03884338 (valid)
US 1800 Silver Dollar, Cert #03859118 (valid)
US 1795 Silver Dollar, Off-Center Bust, Cert #22030856 (valid)
Mexico 1761-MoMM 8 Reales, Cert #05763936 (valid)

"Valid" means that the correct information shows up under Cert Verification

To alert PCGS to any offerings of counterfeit PCGS holders, please notify Ron Guth at guthr@collectors.com. For more information, contact PCGS Customer Service at 800-447-8848.
__________________
aka Dan
DJCoinz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2008, 04:40 PM   #2 (permalink)
Registered Contrarian
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,429
My Mood:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJCoinz View Post
PCGS has called for eBay to stop accepting listings of any rare coins from Chinese sellers.
A great idea, but unfortunately one which would pinch EBay's pocketbook too hard for them to consider it.
__________________
Ethical conduct is being honest when no one is watching.
hontonai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2008, 04:50 PM   #3 (permalink)
Coin Collector
 
Spider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,814
Send a message via AIM to Spider
I feel a big hit for the hobby
trust me, it's gonna happen
__________________
Spider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2008, 10:06 PM   #4 (permalink)
doggone it people like me
 
900fine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,806
My Mood:
Quote:
I feel a big hit for the hobby
trust me, it's gonna happen
If counterfeit raw coins didn't sink the hobby, why would counterfeit slabbed coins ?

Scams are far worse in the raw coin market. Most will understand that, and continue to see TPGs as a force of legitimacy in this marketplace.

There is no way TPGs are going away.

That said, I'm sure we agree that this counterfeit coin / slab thing is a bad deal.

Is the Chinese government doing anything ?
900fine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2008, 05:19 PM   #5 (permalink)
Coin Collector
 
Pocket Change's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Eastern Iowa
Posts: 1,173
E-Bay cannot stop accepting rare coin auctions from Chinese sellers.

They would be up to their eyeballs in lawsuits in seconds - and that would not be from Chinese lawyers, but good 'ole American lawyers who smell a super easy case to win.
__________________
------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know what I want, but I know how to get it
Pocket Change is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2008, 07:12 PM   #6 (permalink)
Coin Hoarder
 
cesariojpn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 710
My Mood:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocket Change View Post
E-Bay cannot stop accepting rare coin auctions from Chinese sellers.

They would be up to their eyeballs in lawsuits in seconds - and that would not be from Chinese lawyers, but good 'ole American lawyers who smell a super easy case to win.
I thought eBay had something called VeRO or something similar? Surely PCGS can get auctions pulled because hey, copyright infringement of both the holder and the label?
cesariojpn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2008, 07:41 PM   #7 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 198
This will serve to undermine confidence in online selling. Especially if the labels get better and you have more of a proliferation of unauthentic coins in slabs with authentications that match the real ones at the TPGs. What a pain. They'll have to come up with something else besides just the certificate numbers to fix this.

Removing the auctions from ebay, even if they could keep a strict watch on it, would still not be 100% effective and won't likely stop the practice from getting more advanced.
ctrl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2008, 08:55 PM   #8 (permalink)
Numismatist
 
Bonedigger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 7,885
All things are bound to change sooner or later and those who can't adapt, well you know the rest... We may be witnessing the beginning of the end for TPGs as we know them. One might even philosophically reason that the collectors who don't 'slab' will see this as a great equalizer, you know those who prefer genuine raw coins.

However, I also see a surge in digital pocket scales and the little weights which calibrate them.

Take Care
Ben
__________________
A few things to remember, Certification and Attribution are Absolute and Definitive. Grading, on the other hand IS NOT. STRIKE is everything, be it strong or weak.
Capped Bust Half Dollars Identification Reference
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Bonedigger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2008, 11:29 PM   #9 (permalink)
Numismatist In Training
 
Hobo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 5,027
My Mood:
Counterfeiting is a huge part of China's economy. They have no incentive to curtail counterfeiting. Even if China could stop the production of counterfeit coins there would still be the following counterfeits pouring out of China:

computer hardware (including chips and processors) and software
drugs (see heparin and 19 deaths in the US)
cigarettes
music CDs
chemicals
agricultural products such as fertilizers, pesticides and seeds
luxury goods - Louis Vuitton and Gucci handbags, Tiffany jewelry, designer clothing
name-brand sporting goods knockoffs - Nike shoes
toys and video games
NutraSweet
laundry detergent
automotive parts
car tires
aircraft parts
batteries
construction tools
electrical appliances
beer
sunglasses

You name it and China more than likely counterfeits it.
__________________
No state shall emit bills of credit, make any thing but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts, coin money . . . - US Constitution, Article 1, Section 10

ANA LM-3799; OHNS LM-59; SUSCC R-4005. All coins stored in bank safe deposit box.
Hobo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2008, 07:02 AM   #10 (permalink)
Coin Hoarder
 
cesariojpn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 710
My Mood:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobo View Post
You name it and China more than likely counterfeits it.
US Presidents?
cesariojpn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2008, 08:41 AM   #11 (permalink)
Akiba haiozi
 
acanthite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Western hemisphere
Posts: 1,822
My Mood:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobo View Post
computer hardware (including chips and processors) and software
drugs (see heparin and 19 deaths in the US)
cigarettes
music CDs
chemicals
agricultural products such as fertilizers, pesticides and seeds
luxury goods - Louis Vuitton and Gucci handbags, Tiffany jewelry, designer clothing
name-brand sporting goods knockoffs - Nike shoes
toys and video games
NutraSweet
laundry detergent
automotive parts
car tires
aircraft parts
batteries
construction tools
electrical appliances
beer
sunglasses

You name it and China more than likely counterfeits it.
You can add CAT bulldozers to that list.
__________________
'The vanquished always seek to imitate their conquerors in their dress, insignia, beliefs, and other customs and usages...' - Ibn Khaldun, c. 1380
acanthite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2008, 11:32 PM   #12 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
ikes4ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 464
chinese beer?
ikes4ever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2008, 11:39 PM   #13 (permalink)
Numismatist In Training
 
Hobo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 5,027
My Mood:
Yep. They rebottled their cheap rot gut as Budweiser.
__________________
No state shall emit bills of credit, make any thing but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts, coin money . . . - US Constitution, Article 1, Section 10

ANA LM-3799; OHNS LM-59; SUSCC R-4005. All coins stored in bank safe deposit box.
Hobo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2008, 11:45 PM   #14 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
acl864's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Central North Carolina
Posts: 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobo View Post
Yep. They rebottled their cheap rot gut as Budweiser.
They can probably fool me with counterfeit coins- I don't think they're gonna have much luck with fake Budweiser- I'm an expert.

Andy
acl864 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2008, 02:26 PM   #15 (permalink)
Team Awesome
 
Jhonn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: DENVER!/BOSTON!
Posts: 714
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobo View Post
Yep. They rebottled their cheap rot gut as Budweiser.
Unfortunately, Budweiser is cheap rot gut as it is...or maybe that's just the snobby I-only-drink-expensive-Belgian-abbey-beer attitude in me coming out.
__________________
"Love, hate, kings, queens: / You die alone in a cold world." - Lyrics from the band Cold World
Jhonn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks
Would you like to support CoinTalk?

Coin Talk Code of Honor
1. Post unto others as you would have them post unto you.
2. Keep it clean, like a 1950s family television show.
3. If you don't like the coin, don't trash the person.

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
PCGS MS70 Silver Eagles - PCGS a NO-NO! Silver Striker Coin Chat 40 03-24-2009 04:10 AM
Anacs zaneman US Coins Forum 93 07-28-2008 06:55 PM
Coin Show Heist!!! indianhead Coin Chat 31 01-15-2007 06:31 PM
Old PCGS Holders...Any difference vs new? drddm US Coins Forum 5 01-23-2005 10:51 PM
Coin Holders Reid Goldsborough Coin Chat 0 09-09-2003 11:29 PM

» Newsletter
Sign up for CoinTalk's Newsletter
enter your email address below.
» Unanswered Posts
Do You Have the Answer?
» Sponsors

» Today's Top Posters
Top Posters in Last 1 Days
[25]
[22]
[14]
[14]
[13]
[13]
[12]
[12]
[12]
[12]

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:02 AM.


vBAdvertise v1.0.0 Copyright ©2009, PixelFX Studios
vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007 - 2008, PixelFX Studios
Copyright 2008 CoinTalk
"Wiki" powered by VaultWiki v2.5.0.
Copyright © 2008 - 2009, Cracked Egg Studios.