1817 Large Cent Opinion Needed

susanlynn9 · 10-22-2004, 04:20 PM

Just got this coin today. I am pretty sure it has been cleaned, but my real question is the wear spot at the forehead which is bright silver, the grayish area around the "7" in the date, and the lighter color spot on the cheek. I think this coin may be counterfeit, but I'm not sure. (I've ordered the Counterfeit Detection book but haven't received it yet). I don't have a scale accurate enough for fractional gram weight, but this coin does way at least 10 grams (specs say 10.89g); it measures exactly 28mm diameter. What do you think?

http://members.sparedollar.com/Bobby...rgeCent-01.jpg

http://members.sparedollar.com/Bobby...rgeCent-02.jpg

ziggy29 · 10-22-2004, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by susanlynn9

What do you think?

If they're fakes, they're pretty well done. Hopefully an early copper nut who knows die varieties can chime in here.

Unless this is a die transfer copy from an actual coin, I'd guess it's real because not many counterfeiters would otherwise include the cud that you have at 3:30 on the reverse rim. But I'd want to attribute it and weigh it to be sure if I had a doubt.

susanlynn9 · 10-22-2004, 04:25 PM

I'm sorry. I should have specified that the area on the reverse that looks like a cud is actually an edge dent.

It never occurred to me when I bought it that it could be counterfeit. I hadn't heard anything about this date/type being counterfeited. My biggest concern is how can a worn area on a copper coin appear silver in color. I'm wondering if it's actually white metal with a copper finish. For what it's worth, it sounds like copper.

ziggy29 · 10-22-2004, 04:31 PM

For starters, try taking a magnet to it. If it's copper, then the magnet won't pick it up. That's obviously not a foolproof/failsafe thing, but it could also prove it's a fake. (Magnets won't pick up copper, which is why it's used as a test for 1943 copper cents.)

ziggy29 · 10-22-2004, 04:40 PM

Looks like N-6 to me:

http://www.coinfacts.com/large_cents...e_cent_n06.htm

susanlynn9 · 10-22-2004, 04:40 PM

It's not magnetic. Is it possible for worn copper to appear silver in color? Have you ever seen anything like that?

National dealer · 10-22-2004, 04:40 PM

Susan,

First let me say, GREAT PICS, nothing in the photo screams fake to me. Looks more like the piece was mounted in jewelry.

susanlynn9 · 10-22-2004, 06:26 PM

That's a great link, Ziggy.

I've spent the last 20 minutes going through it. I don't think this coin is an N-6. The chin/lower jowl looks different. It looks a lot like the second image though. I'm still going through all of them to try to find a match.

Okay, I've gone through them again, and I think I have to agree with you. The Newcomb-6 is definitely the closest. The ear, mouth, nose, and forehead all match that one. Thanks again Ziggy.

ziggy29 · 10-22-2004, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by susanlynn9

Okay, I've gone through them again, and I think I have to agree with you. The Newcomb-6 is definitely the closest. The ear, mouth, nose, and forehead all match that one. Thanks again Ziggy.

No problem. I think attribution is fun.

There's a lot more to look a than just the portrait -- look at the position of the stars relative to the portrait and the denticles. Look at the position and spacing of the date relative to itself and, again, relative to the denticles and the portrait. Actually, those tell more than the portrait itself, I think.

This obverse matches both N-6 and N-7 (and both used the same obverse die). But the reverse is clearly not N-7, looking at the relative position of the legend "UNITED STATES OF AMERICA" relative to berries on the wreath.

susanlynn9 · 10-22-2004, 07:40 PM

I see what you mean and now I defintely agree that it is an N-6. Thanks so much for your help, Ziggy.

susanlynn9 · 11-02-2004, 10:56 PM

I would like to thank all of you for your help with this coin. I just sold it for $133. Not bad for a $28 purchase. Ziggy, a special thanks to you - I could not have attributed it without your help.

National dealer · 11-04-2004, 10:13 PM

That has been my understanding also.

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