JimMayor007

Every wonder why a PCGS coin in MS66 will carry a higher premium to buyers than a MS66 from NGC?

I know for years I did, then about 6 years ago at a convention in San Diego I sat thru a seminar which attempted to educate professional numisist on this exact point(waste of time)!

You see, the bottomline for the price difference has to do with selectibilty at certain grades(according to NGC reps). Being in the buisness for many years, I have noticed that from AU-55 - MS 63, you really notice no price difference when selling professional grade coins between NGC and PCGS, but the magic grade seems to be MS65+. Me being the type of person I am, the seminar seemed to be a good starting point for own homewrok into this age old question.

When you start dealing in higher grade coins, a LARGE part of their value comes from the population report of that specific date and mint. For instance here, I am going to reflect on the 1932 D Washington quarter in MS-65. Ngc has a Pop of 14 currently, with none graded higher(14/0), While PCGS has 63 currently with 1 higher (63/1). YET.... Heritage recently sold a PCGS MS65 32d for 20,500.00, but in May sold a MS65 NGC 32d for 15,600.00 ????????? So I have to say, if the population has the majority to do with it, then this makes NO sense.

Important information NGC vs. PCGS the difference

dreamer94

I was about to ask that question. The other question I have is if the higher values listed in the PCGS price guide are inflated or reflect the fact that PCGS certified coins just sell for more. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

DJCoinz

Can't really be explained...I don't understand it either. The main thing is to buy the coin and not the holder though. If you do that you can't go wrong.

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Leadfoot

Not me. It always seemed rather self-evident that NGC is much more liberal in giving out the 66 (and higher) grades than PCGS.

Also, don't let the pop reports fool you -- you should be looking at % of coins in a grade, and not the sum total of coins in a grade.

Regardless, I think if you study practically any series, the first statement of my post will become rather obvious -- it is true from old copper to moderns and everywhere in between -- NGC is looser with the ultra-high grades...Mike

900fine

That makes a lot of sense.

Personally, I'm not as convinced there is a big $-wise difference between PCGS and NGC. In the case above (32-D MS65 25c), we're only looking at two data points.... but there are many thousands of slabs traded a year. We need a bigger sample size !

So I went and checked the Heritage listings. And yes I found some wild price swings - PCGS vs PCGS ! Check these two :

$18,400 http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item...No=1000&src=pr

$13,800 http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item..._No=945&src=pr

Forgetting price, looking only at the coins... which do you prefer ? For me, the first one. It's blast white, while the other has a mottled tone.

Apparently, the marketplace agrees. Coin #1 is worth $4,600 more - about 33% - even though both are PCGS MS65.

Which just validates the "Buy the coin, not the holder" thing. And the "not fungible goods" thing.

So I would be careful drawing conclusions from just two data points NGC vs. PCGS. Overall, I think PCGS has a slight lead, but it's small. If it were huge, there would be a huge flock moving towards PCGS.

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TCBBK

Pop reports are completely and utterly worthless. They don't (and can't) take into account coins that were cracked-out & resubmitted. I have seen in print (perhaps QDB, but I might be wrong) that as much as 25% of submissions are crack-outs! Not that <i>that</i> number can be solidified either...but let's face it...the numbers are severely skewed.

900fine

There's no doubt the coin census is imperfect... just like the people census.

But imperfection doesn't mean it's completely worthless. We just have to realize the imperfections, take it with a grain of salt, and use it cautiously within its bounds... just like the people census.

I am told that many folks send in their certificates after they crack 'em open, and the top TPGs decrement the census accordingly. That is a correcting factor.

I think the census does tell a tale. It's useful for comparing issues within a series, and looking for a "break point" at which the population dives, and comparing that to price. Helps me make decisions sometimes.

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Shortgapbob

I'm not one who necessarily drinks the "PCGS Kool-Aid" and I honestly feel that NGC is often more consistent than PCGS is with grading. But NGC does give out 67s more generously (even if consistently) in many coin areas including Mercury Dimes, Washington Quarters, and especially Lincoln Cents. I also feel that NGC is more liberal with grading gold, especially grading Indians with rubs as 60/61 coins.

So, I often feel that the higher PCGS prices are warranted. But, with that said, there are many nice coins in NGC holdes.

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Treashunt

The real reason for the PCGS prices is their collection listings for high quality sets.

The registry sets only allow PCGS coins and it has increased the prices for listings.

http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/

Of course, this is all bogus and bull----.

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The Other Frank
"Buy The Book Before The Coin!"
Buy The Book before the Book:
http://www.whitmanbooks.com/Default....tID=079482580X

GDJMSP

To me consistency is the key element when it comes to grading. What good does it do to have a coin graded by PCGS when the very same coin can be graded 4 or 5 times with grades ranging from MS63 to MS67 - the very same coin ! That alone is the reason for crackouts. No, NGC is not perfect either. But then they at least do not have such wild swings when assigning grades. If you submit the same coin to them 5 times, 4 out of 5 of those times the coin will be graded the same. That speaks volumes.

As for price differences, yes PCGS slabbed coins do bring higher prices as a general rule. But to a very large degree it depends on the particular coins that you are comparing. Not all MS65's are equal, but when people compare realized prices they tend to forget that so that they can justify their own opinions. They also tend to forget that PCGS, in my opinion, is reluctant to assign higher grades even when they are deserved so that they can perpetuate the misconceived notion that they have tougher standards.

If you do a really honest comparison of a group of coins all graded the same by the two companies you will find that they are pretty much equal in regard to the range of quality you will find in the given group of coins in that grade. You'll find coins graded by both companies at the low end of the scale, the middle and the high end. But the coins graded by NGC will be much closer to each other than those graded by PCGS. Consistency is everything.

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ajbuckle

I'm a relative newby compared to many of you, but I have an ooinion on this issue. I just don't like the white plastic of the NGC holders, the transparent holders by PCGS and ICG allow my eye to see the coin in my environment, not a white plastic environment. I just feel that the experience is a lot closer to holding a raw coin than in NGC holders.

Also, for modern coins (Silver Reverse Proof for example), NCG grades twice the percentage of coins at 70 than PCGS. So a coin that you might get from NGC as a 70, may slab as a 69 with PCGS. That makes a PCGS 70 more selective and therefore more valuable. But why then does a PCGS 69 cost more than a NGC 69?

Treashunt

aj:
as stated above:
The real reason for the PCGS prices is their collection listings for high quality sets.

The registry sets only allow PCGS coins and it has increased the prices for listings.

http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/

Of course, this is all bogus and bull----.

__________________
The Other Frank
"Buy The Book Before The Coin!"
Buy The Book before the Book:
http://www.whitmanbooks.com/Default....tID=079482580X

GDJMSP

That is exactly the assumption that PCGS wants you to make. But is it a valid assumption ? Suppose you were to find out that PCGS has a quota system for the 70 grades - meaning that no matter what, only 5 or 10 (pick a number) coins of a given series can be assigned the 70 grade and after that all others will be assigned the 69 grade or lower.

Would you then still think the same thing ?

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Cloudsweeper99

If I'm looking at two coins in different slabs, and the coins have about equal eye-appeal and look to grade the same, I'm going to buy the less expensive one regardless of whether it's NGC or PCGS. PCGS might command a premium, but times change, opinions change, people come and go, and businesses improve and/or go out of existence. So the PCGS slab might command a higher price now, but in 10 years nobody knows. Maybe opinions of NGC will go up. Maybe PCGS will mismanage their business. Maybe both companies will be under new ownership with unforseen consequences. Then you are left hoping that the older slabs still sell at a premium to the newer ones. This is just a long-winded suggestion to buy the coin and not the slab.

Danr

In this particular case (the Heritage example) it may have had more to tdo with the look of the coins themselves (remember "buy the coin not the holder").