PCGS MS70 Silver Eagles - PCGS a NO-NO!

Silver Striker · 01-10-2007, 07:05 AM

In another thread I asked the question WHY they won't grade ASE's with MS70?

A reply I received lead me to this Q&A statement from PCGS.

Question: Why doesn’t PCGS grade Silver American Eagles in MS-70?

Answer: The chemical rinse that the U.S. Mint uses on these coins can cause white spots to develop over time. In most cases, the spots cannot be removed. Until that problem is resolved, the responsible choice for PCGS is to stay away from the MS-70 grade, even though some technically perfect examples exist.

-- Ron Guth, PCGS President

This statement in my opinion is gobble-de-gook! If the coin they have in their hand and viewed by their graders is an MS70, I do not believe that the coin should be downgraded because of a possible future problem. If "white spots" are a possibility to these coins then why even grade them as MS69? These "white spots" could feasibly cause the MS69 to become an MS65 or lower couldn't it? I have just started collecting ASE coins and get mostly Proof's from the mint. I would like to see an example of these "white spots" as PCGS has described them. Are they absolutely 100% positive that these "white spots" they are talking about are caused by the chemical rinse? Could something else be the cause? Have experiments been done proving it? Why is it that ONLY PCGS is taking this stand regarding ASE MS70 designations?

I would prefer to see PCGS MS70's given to a perfect coin if they exist and PCGS can create a disclaimer on guarantee where by these "white spots" are not guaranteed against developing on MS silver eagles. This can be done as it has been with copper, bronze or copper nickel coins that NCG regulates.

PCGS can edit this FAQ statement

Q: Can my coin change appearance after being placed in a PCGS holder?
A: It is extremely unlikely that your coin will change appearance within a PCGS holder. The PCGS holder was designed specifically for the long-term storage and protection of your coins. The holder itself is made of inert materials that keep your coin safe. The sealed holder inhibits the entrance of atmospheric gases and contaminants that might harm your coin. Even so, common sense practices should keep your PCGS graded coins safe for a lifetime. Avoid humidity and excessive temperature swings by keeping your coins in a dry environment, preferably at a constant room temperature. If you have a coin that you think has changed in the holder contact PCGS customer service and we can arrange to examine the coin for you.

Here's NGC's statements...

After encapsulation, can the appearance of a coin change over time?

Yes. In independent testing, the NGC security holder has been proven as the most effective grading service holder on the market today in minimizing the effects of oxidation. Even so, the NGC holder is not 100% airtight and therefore oxidation, a normal process where air reacts with the surface of a coin, can continue after encapsulation. To further limit environmental hazards, we recommend storing your coins in a temperature-controlled, low humidity area such as a bank safety deposit box. Be sure to check with your bank for rules & regulations concerning the storage of these items.

Are all coins certified & encapsulated by NGC covered by the NGC guarantee?

The NGC Guarantee does not apply to copper, bronze or copper nickel coins graded by NGC prior to April 1, 2000. To the extent that the NGC Guarantee applies to copper, bronze, or copper nickel coins, the NGC Guarantee expires with respect to such coin(s) on the ten year anniversary of the date of encapsulation by NGC. Additionally, any NGC certified coin deemed by us to be representative of a clerical error is not covered by the NGC guarantee. Clerical errors may be returned to NGC for correction of labeling at no charge to the submitter.

Then there is this PCGS problem with the handling of SILVER and we all know what finger oils can do to silver...

Q: Why don’t graders and sealers wear gloves while handling coins?
A: PCGS graders and sealers are experts in the proper care and handling of coins. While gloves offer additional protection, they reduce the tactile sensations necessary to properly manipulate coins during the grading process and could increase the chance of dropping a coin.

I don't know if NGC handles coins with gloves or not (looking at their web site, I don't believe they do because the photo they show on the grading page shows the person holding the coin without gloves) but under these circumstances, I will be sending my unopened 20th anniversary ASE sets to NGC.

samjimmy · 01-10-2007, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver Striker

Until that problem is resolved, the responsible choice for PCGS is to stay away from the MS-70 grade, even though some technically perfect examples exist.

I do not believe that the coin should be downgraded because of a possible future problem.

I agree and it seems ridiculous. One could easily compare that to not grading copper coins as RED or RED BROWN, because they could turn brown in the future. Or not grading coppers at their current grade because they may corrode in the future.

"The responsible choice..." my donkey.

Even though there are many good points about grading, it's things like this that make *all* grading suspect.

**Speedy** · 01-10-2007, 01:00 PM

That is why I use NGC

Speedy

Midas · 01-10-2007, 01:56 PM

Of course you should use NGC, they hand out 70 grades for moderns like it is no tomorrow...

2006-W Gold Proof Buffalos

5,893 "1st Strike" Submissions.....3,015 received PR70UCAM (51.2%)
7,426 "Normal" Submission.....3,690 received PR7OUCAM (49.2%)

2006-W Gold MS Buffalos

62,860 "1st Strike" Submissions.....31,400 received MS70 grades (49.9%)
4,061 "Normal" Submissions....2,042 received MS70 grades (50.3%)

2006-W Silver American Eagle Proof:

6,061 "1st Strike" Submissions.....3,114 received PF70UCAM (51.2%)
16,959 "Normal" Submissions.....9,535 received PR70UCAM (56.2%)

SWEET!!

************************************************** *

Damn...I am going to start submitting my coins to NGC because I have a 50-50 shot of getting a 70 grade for my moderns. Then, I can't wait to sell them so I can hit the "70" jackpot!!

See for yourself...(NGC population lookup)

http://ngccoin.com/poplookup/

**Speedy** · 01-10-2007, 05:17 PM

Midas
Didn't you even read what the first posted quoted from PCGS???
They DO get coins graded MS70 but because they are afraid that the coin MAY get a spot and they will have to pay for the coin they don't give out what the coin should be graded---that is just as bad as SGS in overgrading----experts say Undergrading and Overgrading are just as bad.

Speedy

Old Silver · 01-10-2007, 05:35 PM

What??? You mean NGC and SGS aren't the same company!! I was beginning to think so.

Old Silver · 01-10-2007, 05:54 PM

Quote:

The NGC Guarantee does not apply to copper, bronze or copper nickel coins graded by NGC prior to April 1, 2000.

So do they get a "First Grade" or "Early Release Grade" label?

Midas · 01-10-2007, 07:20 PM

I am still waiting for those owners of the 5 known 1913 Liberty Nickels to resubmit their coins for a "First Strike" designation.

First Strike, First Strikes, First Release, Early Release...what a bunch of crap!

And by the way...SGS is NOT a grading company. They are owned by their eBay seller Aboncom who takes their own coins and MARKETS them in their own plastic with MS70 or PR70 labels. They are not a grading company, they are a "marketing and packaging" venue for Aboncom's loose change.

It is nothing more than putting "lipstick and makeup" on a pig....(sorry to offend any pigs out there)

airedale · 01-11-2007, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedy

Midas
Didn't you even read what the first posted quoted from PCGS???
They DO get coins graded MS70 but because they are afraid that the coin MAY get a spot and they will have to pay for the coin they don't give out what the coin should be graded---that is just as bad as SGS in overgrading----experts say Undergrading and Overgrading are just as bad.

Speedy

Sage! Sorry for any remarks I may have made in the past about your age.

Victor · 01-11-2007, 02:23 AM

It is nothing more than putting "lipstick and makeup" on a pig....(sorry to offend any pigs out there)[/QUOTE]

You forgot the perfume!

JBK · 01-11-2007, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver Striker

I have just started collecting ASE coins and get mostly Proof's from the mint. I would like to see an example of these "white spots" as PCGS has described them. Are they absolutely 100% positive that these "white spots" they are talking about are caused by the chemical rinse? Could something else be the cause? Have experiments been done proving it? .

I agree with a lot of your disgust on this issue, but if you have nevee seen white spots on uncirculated SE then you either don't have much experience with them or have been buying dipped coins. These spots/smears are very common on mint state SEs, especially on some older SEs. The are also called milk spots.

BTW - it was not too long ago that NO gradig service would give a 70 designation to any coin.

samjimmy · 01-11-2007, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBK

BTW - it was not too long ago that NO gradig service would give a 70 designation to any coin.

...which doesn't make much sense either if you think about it. The highest grade is unobtainable? So that makes the highest grade the one before the unobtainable one. Thus they might not give out 70's but they might give 69's like candy, so what's the difference?

I can see *no* reason *not* to give a coin a certain grade, should it meet the qualifications of that grade. Problem is, those "qualifications" and the entire system used to grade is entirely subjective, thus it's not overly surprising that it's full of b.s. It's one thing to try to determine wear on an older coin, and another to give points for "eye appeal" and "luster" with any sort of accuracy and consistency.

Also the NCG submissions, I see it like this...

2006-W Gold Proof Buffalos
13,319 Submissions.....6,705 received PR70UCAM (50.3%)

2006-W Gold MS Buffalos
66,921 Submissions.....33,442 received MS70 grades (49.9%)

2006-W Silver American Eagle Proof
23,020 Submissions.....12,649 received PF70UCAM (54.9%)

To me that doesn't show that NCG hands out 70's like candy, it shows that NGC found no reason to deduct points for about half the coins submitted. Seems reasonable to say that, after looking at a bunch of them, one could determine what the "best" looks like, and assign the highest grade to coins that match that. (Similar to seeing that some years of certain coins are weakly struck, and thus that knowledge is used to grade those particular coin years.)

If other companys want to undergrade and/or play the low population and/or resubmit game, so be it. I think every submitted coin should come with a report detailing exactly what *each* of the graders (if more than one looks at the coin) sees and why the coin gets the grade it gets, the calculations, and the grading guide used. In other words, justify it and implement some accountability. While I'm wishing, bring back the dual grades (obverse and reverse).

airedale · 01-11-2007, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samjimmy

...which doesn't make much sense either if you think about it. The highest grade is unobtainable? So that makes the highest grade the one before the unobtainable one. Thus they might not give out 70's but they might give 69's like candy, so what's the difference?

I can see *no* reason *not* to give a coin a certain grade, should it meet the qualifications of that grade. Problem is, those "qualifications" and the entire system used to grade is entirely subjective, thus it's not overly surprising that it's full of b.s. It's one thing to try to determine wear on an older coin, and another to give points for "eye appeal" and "luster" with any sort of accuracy and consistency.

Also the NCG submissions, I see it like this...

2006-W Gold Proof Buffalos
13,319 Submissions.....6,705 received PR70UCAM (50.3%)

2006-W Gold MS Buffalos
66,921 Submissions.....33,442 received MS70 grades (49.9%)

2006-W Silver American Eagle Proof
23,020 Submissions.....12,649 received PF70UCAM (54.9%)

To me that doesn't show that NCG hands out 70's like candy, it shows that NGC found no reason to deduct points for about half the coins submitted. Seems reasonable to say that, after looking at a bunch of them, one could determine what the "best" looks like, and assign the highest grade to coins that match that. (Similar to seeing that some years of certain coins are weakly struck, and thus that knowledge is used to grade those particular coin years.)

If other companys want to undergrade and/or play the low population and/or resubmit game, so be it. I think every submitted coin should come with a report detailing exactly what *each* of the graders (if more than one looks at the coin) sees and why the coin gets the grade it gets, the calculations, and the grading guide used. In other words, justify it and implement some accountability. While I'm wishing, bring back the dual grades (obverse and reverse).

OK and then comes along PCI. How shall we kick them today?

bama guy · 01-11-2007, 07:59 AM

A thought I am pondering and thanks to this lively discussion something has come to my inexperienced mind.

I see the Silver Anniversary selling for all kinds of serious bucks in the NGC 70 grades. Now suppose you lay out the bucks on the secondary market and purchased one the these 1.5k+++ sets . OK now 5 years later you open you safety deposit box and my goodness, spots.

I am assuming that the slabbed coin in a 70 grade and now you are looking at probably a 69 on this even with the 70 desingnation . Am I correct on this and the best you could hope for is a free re slab and you can kiss that 70 grade good bye not to mention some major bucks.

The pig with the lip stick, make up and perfume I am working on now. Heck I have not even figured out what killed the dinosaur yet.

I have 4 Silver anniversary set in the mint box and was considering sending them out for certification. Think i will now wait. thanks to a lot of good information in here i have got to ask if it is really worth it.

kind of unrelated but though i would add this . I like to watch the coin Shows on TV. I have learned a lot from them about how you can get stuck for sure. Kind of like a reverse education so to speak. Anyhow some are pushing the NGC first strike as a Limited addition and you should act quick to get them before they are gone. unreal....

samjimmy · 01-11-2007, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airedale

OK and then comes along PCI. How shall we kick them today?

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by that. I'm guessing that you mean a "not so top rated company" -but there's a bunch that probably fit that (PCI, NTC, NNC, etc.) so I'm not sure if mentioned PCI specificially for some reason?

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