Irish political tokens

As some of you know I'm an avid collector and researcher of primarily 19th Century U.S. counterstamps. I've also had an interest for some time in the political stamps of Northern Ireland, those I call "troubles counterstamps." Just within the past 6 months or so I decided to branch out into this area of collecting and try to put together a comprehensive group of these tokens. So far I've only acquired a small number of the three dozen or so documented issues definitely linked to the Catholic / Protestant conflict in that region. Undoubtedly, there are many others that haven't been identified as belonging to this series. The "end game" for me is not only to collect them, but also to document new ones and research their history, the issuers involved, and the purpose of each. Eventually, I plan on writing an article detailing my findings and submit it to the Token and Medal Society (TAMS) Journal for possible publication.
The two examples here are from my collection and promote a pro-Protestant sentiment commonly seen on Irish coins of the 1960's and 70's. "REM / 1690" is an abbreviation for the phrase "Remember 1690", 1690 being the date of the Battle of the Boyne fought near Drogheda, Kingdom of Ireland. The combatants were the Protestant King William III (William of Orange) and the deposed (in 1688 by William) Catholic King James II. William's army won handily and James fled the country. The victory guaranteed the supremacy of Protestant rule in the region. Today, the battle is commemorated by the Orange Order every year by parades sometimes refered to as "The Twelfth."
The example of this slogan found on the 1931 Irish Penny proves that these issues predate the commonly found examples from the 60's and 70's. What's interesting about this one is the style of the punches used. They are very similiar to font styles used in the mid to late 1800's which indicates very old punch sets were used to counterstamp the coin, likely in the 1930's or 40's. They show an interesting contrast to the sharp, "sterile" looking lettering appearing on the newer coin.
I still have a lot to learn about these issues, and would appreciate hearing from any CT members who have some knowledge of them. I plan on updating this thread on occasion when new information or examples of these tokens come my way. In the meantime, thanks for looking.

Bruce

 

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I really do not collect 20th century Irish coins, but do collect Northern Ireland banknotes. There are some issues, notably National Bank Limited notes from 1939-59 that are practically impossible to find nice undefaced examples of. The reason, the Irish nationalist Daniel O'Connell is in the watermark era of the note - so if Protestants got the note they would deface it with an X over O'Connells' image on the note. I have managed to find the £1, £5, and £10 that have not been defaced - and they cost a bundle. So far I have yet to find the £20 that has not been defaced.

I do collect Irish coins and tokens until the "Wood's Hibernia" era, but after that I lose interest - my Scots-Irish ancestors left in the 1730s and came to America. My favourite pieces are my 17th century Irish tokens.

I have to wonder, because I see a lot of 1970s era Canadian coinage where QEII's portrait is scratched over with an X - how many British coins were similarly defaced in Ireland? British coinage did circulate even in the Republic up until decimalisation as often it pre-dated the Free State coinage of 1928.

 

It's interesting that you mention the defacing of the Queen's portrait as a political protest Scottishmoney. I have a Queen Victoria Six-Pence (can't read the date) that has two neatly applied X's over her face that I assume i was done for political reasons. I would like to know how long these types of coins circulated in the UK as it would give me some hint as to the age of the counterstamp. You might know something about that. The coin is heavily damaged and well-worn, but the stamp, though showing some wear, is in fairly good shape.
Like you, I've seen a number of Canadian coins with various letters stamped over the portrait, but don't know if they were done for a political reason or even if the stamp relates to the conflict in Northern Ireland. These issues are not well documented, and until I learn more about them and see more examples of them I'm just guessing. Do you know if Canadian coins circulated in Ireland at any time?
A large majority of the troubles counterstamps were issued by Protestant groups, and nearly always appear on Irish coins from what I can tell. In contrast, the very few issues of the Greens (IRA, RIRA, etc.) are struck on English coins, usually defacing Queen Elizabeth. The more I learn about these issues, the more I realize how much I still need to learn. Thanks for your comments, I appreciate it.

Bruce

 

I have a whole bunch of those Irish defaced coins tucked away somewhere.
I worked in Northern Ireland during the troubles, early 70`s and lost several colleagues.
I`ve never met more nut jobs on both sides that will not give up, the political and religious issues are
just an excuse for a mafia involved in all sorts of crime.

Anyhow I will try and dig the coins out.
Here`s a William of Orange Halfpenny token from my home city of Kingston upon Hull, (Kingstown)

 

Great to see your response davey. I really wanted to hear from someone like yourself who had an insight into that era. It's really sad to hear of the loss of those you were close to to such awful violence.
Thanks for posting the beautiful token from your home city. I'd love to see your defaced coins. It will give me more insight into my research, something I really need. My best regards.

Bruce

 

Canadian coins are defaced by Quebecois - the French speakers in Quebec that have been agitating for years for independence from Canada. Usually I don't see stamps on the Canadians, they are usually just scratched out with some metal tool or key or something similar.

Frankly in Ireland, I wouldn't want to be caught spending something with a stamp like those on them. I wouldn't want to be associated with either side there - I think all that behaviour there is so unsettling - people going around and still bickering and even occasionally still killing over events from 300+ years ago. I thank my ancestors most heartily for having the wherewithal to get out of there whilst the going was good.

 

I posted this coin before and most responders thought that it was a "love token".
But I wonder.

Great Britain Gothic Florin 1873 with Initials


Obverse
The letters look like "LL" and "DH".


Reverse
The letters look like "LL" and "CH" on the cross.

 

Thanks for your input Willie. The "LL" or "CH" initials aren't those of any political organization of slogan I've come across yet, but you never know. It looks like there's a very faint "AND" scratched in the portrait on the obverse, which would indicate to me it would be a love or friendship token. Something like "LL and DH". Usually the political defacing of coins is done over the portrait and is very obvious. This one on a Victoria 6-Pence is more like what you would see.

Bruce

 

Thank you.
I never noticed the "AND" before.
The initials on the obverse "DH" could be "CH" with a scratch,
they would then match the initials on the reverse.

 

Yeah, sometimes those tiny little details like the "AND" on your Florin are easy to miss. Because I've been studying and collecting counterstamps for so many years I've learned to pay attention to anything that might indicate additionad words or partial letters or symbols. These can sometimes make a big difference in trying to attribute a piece. I think you're right about the scratches making the "C" look like a "D". You have an interesting piece Willie, it's too bad we don't know who the two people were.

Bruce

 

Davey: If you can locate your bunch of Irish coins and would consider selling them please send me a PM. Thanks.

Bruce

 

I love counterstamps - especially political ones - and I have a few of these as well. I have found that collecting them is a bit treacherous, though, since some are presumably being faked today. I recall buying a pair of pennies, one showing the initials of an organizationon on one side of the "troubles", and the oher showing the intials of an organiztion on the other side. They were done in similar style and in an identical type style. Very suspicious.....

As far as I know, there were no "single punch" slogans/dates used on these coins - the all seem to be from individual letter/number punches.

For example, I understand that British pound coins stamped RIRA are out there in the UK now, and I would love to have one in my collection, but I would need to get one straight from circulation to make asure it is "real".

 

Hi Jeff, good to hear from you again. This is an interesting area of counterstamping, but by its very nature present a collector with a unique set of problems. Since all of the three dozen or so individual troubles issues I'm aware of seem to be from individual letter punches and not prepared dies, it makes it difficult to be certain what is "authentic" and what's not. But then again, what should be considered authentic? If they're actually issued by some individual or organization with an axe to grind in this horrible conflict and not someone punching "IRA" on a coin for the purpose of making a buck, then they're authentic in my estimation. Two examples of what I feel may be bogus IRA counterstamps were recently offered on a popular internet auction site. They were on the same denomination coin, but different dates. Both looked nearly identical, the "I" struck leaning to the right showing an impression of the shoulder of the punch from a too heavy strike. The "R" and "A" were widely seperated and placed badly in relation to each other. Apparently IRA counterstamps are quite rare, so I didn't feel comfortable bidding on then.

As far as "RIRA" counterstamps are concerned, I do have one in my collection. It was bought from a UK collector who's a member of this forum who acquired it from change. I definitely feel this is authentic. As I get more examples of these , I'll be sure to post pics and any information I find on them. Thanks for your input Jeff.

Bruce

 

I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of what might be considered "authentic".

A modern one done for the "tourist trade" (or collectors on eBay) would, in my opinion, be "fake". One done in the era of use by someone who was expressing an opinion would be "authentic". (The RIRA coins seem to be modern/current, so the test woudl be who did it and for what purpose).

I might even extend the "authentic" label to coins produced by someone who might have been making a profit selling them to those who wanted to distribute them to further their cause or promote their opinion. (This scenario seems unlikely, but I offer it since I have what might be considered an example of something like this - a French coin produced in the manner of the "SEDAN" counterstamped coins, but done by someone with artistic skill who modified the design with specialized tools -perhaps a jeweler producing these for profit, contemporary to the era of the political climate that was represented by the alterations).

I will have to dig out my suspect Irish coins - they had characteristics similar to what you deacribed - maybe the same person is still at work. On my coins, opposing sides were represented by counterstamps that weere earily similar in layout and letter placement. (They were cheap enough so that I couldl buy them for reference purposes).

 

Here's the example of the "RIRA" counterstamp in my collection Jeff. The initials stand for the Real Irish Republican Army, which is an offshoot of the IRA (PIRA) This faction broke from the IRA around 1989 apparently because the IRA wasn't radical enough and were thought to be going "soft". The examples of this counterstamp I've seen are struck over the portrait of the Queen as a means of defacing the monarchy. It's similiar in nature to the Victoria 6-Pence I posted in #8 above. Whereas the rarer Republican issues seem to be always struck on English coins, the Protestant issues appear regularly on Irish coins. I did think about buying the IRA stamped coins and mark them as possibly bogus, but the price was a bit too steep so I passed on them.

Bruce

 

Thx for showing that - it is a great piece (historically speaking) with an important provenance proving authenticity.

The controversial messages on these coins raises another area that might be interesting to research - the method of distribution. These days, coins can easily be placed into circulation via vending machines, Coin Star machines, coin counters at the local bank or credit union, etc. I am not sure the original makers of counterstamped coins in Ireland (including Northern Ireland) had it so easy. If they were circulating coins among a friendly audience it was perhaps not so much of a challenge, but to get it into “enemy territory” would have been a greater and far more dangerous challenge.

 

Wow!,
thanks Bruce!, this is a very interesting thread. I'm a collector of Ireland coins too (as you know). I'll keep an eye out from them for you. I REALLY don't need something else to collect do I? LOL

Thanks!,
Mark

 

Come on Mark, what's one more little old series to collect? If I remember correctly (and I do) yours truly just got involved in some new Austrian "stuff". Irish politicals should be a natural for you. Thanks for your comments.

Bruce

 

Not exactly what you were looking for:

guy :devil:


Addendum: Here's the engraver's bio (from Wikipedia):

Norbert Roettiers (1665 – May 18, 1727) was a celebrated Flanders-born engraver of currency and medals in both England and France. With his elder brother James he was named Engraver-General to the British Royal Mint in 1695.

Roettiers was born in Antwerp, the third son of John Roettiers (1631–1703), and a member of an illustrious family of engravers, goldsmiths, and silversmiths, including his brother James Roettiers (1663–1698); cousin Joseph-Charles Roettiers (1691–1779); son Jacques Roettiers (1707–1784), also known as James; and grandson Jacques-Nicolas Roettiers (1736–1788).

He was employed in the British Royal Mint from about 1684 onwards, and in 1690 was officially the given post (together with his brother James) of assistant engraver. He was a strong Jacobite and left England about 1695 to attach himself to the Stuart court. He was later appointed engraver-general to the French mint, and died at his country seat in France.

 

That's a nice medal Guy, and in the same ballpark so to speak. It's an interesting period in history. Thanks for posting it.

Bruce