Cool mason penny someone in my metal detecting forum found

I immensely dislike argument, yet I entertain debate. To be sure, it was I who declared these coins 'altered' from the very start! Via this thread, I have been requesting and seeking a term for these and other 'altered-coins' as one does not exist in traditional numismatics or grading, yet the base is a coin, a monetary unit. One user stepped up and offered 'counter-stamped' at one point in a thread about these coins. Everyone else has argued semantics of the 'hobby' and been rather dismissive to something already obviously not a part of numismatics, numismatic values and grading. The responders seem threatened that these coins were being pushed into the hobby... or into the business of coins. They were not. However, many have piqued curiosity by counter-stamped coinage even if trivial, a lot of people hold/collect these when found and more than a few users have posted curious variations and even turned up a very unique 1850s hand engraved design on an altered seated liberty. There coins pop up a lot here and they get little to no response. I requested the community offer some coins for view and some terms for consideration. I was met with a negative dismissive narrow-minded attitude and reception, which offered nothing to the original inquiry. That is not an argument, that's a review of the facts of this tread to date.

 

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The 1937 is not carved down. It's flattened or even beveled from the counter-stamp pressure exerted to imprint the Masonic design just as the others shown on this thread. Yes, you can carve such a thing, as I also stated by a skill hand and laborious effort, but the evidence is against it in the case of Masonic pennies, as they are counter-stamped. In the '55 you can even see how the counter-stamp seems to have slid to the 5 o'clock position during the stamping from uneven pressure.

 

I have not seen the reverse of the OP coin but I refer you to this thread to show what can be done with a lincoln cent in the right hands.
http://www.cointalk.com/forum/t22488/

 

Viper: There is no doubt what could be done and has been done to coins, like in your example, by a skilled metal worker applying hand tooled techniques to a coins alteration. I even introduced such manipulation of metals into the conversation earlier. I also cited the amount of time and labor this work would entail, how this would limit quantity and increase uniqueness and value (such comments of praise are readily seen in your example of billzach's piece too.) However, I don't think billzach turns out a great number of these as Masons did/do, nor would he just give them away for little to nothing in return for his work. As I already pointed out, as evidenced by a number of examples on this tread and floating around CT, Masonic pennies display more evidence of a counter-stamp technique than hand work. You seem to disbelieve this in the face of clear evidence of stamping, when the reverse of some of these coins is shown. The reverse of the 1937 may not be available for us to view, so the benefit of doubt lives on. Yet, rationally considered in light of the evidence of counter-stamping, the time to do this type of hand work would not have produced many Masonic pennies and we can clearly see that there exist quite a few of them in peoples collections however individuals value them.

Thank you for pointing out billzach's work. I look forward to seeing more of it if he's still around and at work on these altered / non-counter-stamped / hand-worked coins.

 

I'm just jumping into this wall of text so I can find my way back to it with some questions & photos.

I have two coins I want to photo (wish me luck)~

But from the content here so far my interest has been stirred in a few directions.

Sometimes I want to know WHAT WAS it (?)
or WHAT IS IT?
then WHY/WHEN & HOW, depending on how it got my attention.

This thread seems to be going in all those directions if you throw in~

"And what would you take for it?" & "Gee, Thanks, I always wanted one of those!" :bigeyes:

 

Altered for what?

Like this thing~
I don't know WHAT it is or how it got to be this way but within the last 173 yrs it got used for something.

Restamped and inscribed and perhaps presented.

 

This is not at all a true statement.

this means nothing at all, but then again I do not follow such trends in collecting to give 2 spits about a 'system' as such.

to say these coins are worthless is laughable and completely incorrect. Numismaticly they are worth more than the penny itself was...in some cases, if the topic of the counter stamp is interesting enough...it would be worth FAR more. Numismatic worth is dictated, in the end, by how much a collector is willing to pay and certainly there are many collectors who would pay quite a bit for such a numismatic oddity...and pay well over a penny.

To say a coin like this is numismaticly worthless would also being saying a hobo nickel is worthless...and indeed most genuine or well carved hobo nickels are worth, numsmaticly, Many THOUSANDS of times more than the coin itself. What a stupid TPG company would call it means less than nothing...they dont... and god help us if they (being a for profit business) EVER set the standard for what is or isnt numismaticly worthy. When a normal coin with a face value of 1 cent sells for 100 USD...that is numismatic worth...you are paying 100 USD for something that is actualy worth 1 cent (or whatever actual material value which would be what melt is at the time) because of some other factors that have made that coin far more desirable and thus worth more...this is the case with counterstamped or carved coins...often times their worth is far more than the face value (or melt) of the coin because it has become far more desirable.

I guess if I sent these coins to one of those companies:





they would come back as damaged and upgradable? I wouldn't know as I have never thrown money away to have someone else do my work for me, that is to evaluate the coins I buy for my hobby...or should I say I have never spent money on a cheap plastic container for coins and a label...

I paid quite a bit for these two coins, they are works of art and numismaticly speaking, they are worth a lot of money and far more than the nickel they were carved from. I could probably buy several nice ancient coins for the price of these two coins. Many counter stamped or altered coins sell for more, in the end, because the stamp or alteration often brings unique character, history and thus interest to a coin that otherwise would be much the same as all others. Thus it becomes more desirable, thus the numismatic value goes up.

So, numismaticly speaking, these counter stamped Masonic pennies are worth FAR more than a penny (or its melt value) and worth what collectors will pay for them..there are people who collect such things, I would certainly happily put one into my collection.

 

AMEN!

Thanks also for showing these Romanized hobo nickels! They're brilliant!

 

That's Art!

WoW!

Scrimshaw in the trenches folks.


Where would DeVinci have been without charcoal & PAPER?

Those are truly Wonderful/Beautiful/Instructional & tHANKS for sharing.

 

Drusus, I hope you don't take this wrong, but those two engraved nickels are numismatically worthless. Or maybe worth just face value. But as works of art I would agree they are worth or could be worth a considerable amount. They just have no real numismatic tie-in. They aren't really hobo nickels, but modern, quality examples of engraving art. Just works of art that happen to have been engraved on nickels.

 

Numismatically? Maybe not. Collectability? Maybe so......I'm a collector. :smile

 

They are coins thus they are classified as numismatic pieces. They are indeed modern hobo nickels carved by a guy who carries on that tradition in a spectacular way...

Numismatic: of, pertaining to, or consisting of coins, medals, paper money, etc.

Exonumia: items, as tokens or medals, that resemble money but are not intended to circulate as money.

Under these definitions, not only are these hobo nickels numismatic items, so would be the counter stamped penny. If you choose to define numismatics differently and narrow the definition to exclude an altered coin, that's fine but I think its clear that these are coins, hobo nickels would be under the Exonumia category and the counter stamped coin is still a coin and again, in many cases, worth well over the original coins value. Counter stamped coins go as far back as ancient Greece, if you collect counter stamped coins or altered coins, you are still collecting coins, it is still numismatics. Thus an altered coin like a hobo nickel or a counter stamped Spanish Reale have numismatic value...not worthless in the least. I have never seen a person judge a counter stamped ancient coin from Greece or a counterstamped Spanish Reale as 'numismaticly worthless' because of the counterstamp, in fact I have never seen them say they were even diminished in value because of it....and in fact many people would see such coins as even more interesting.

you are a collector? Collector of coins? that is what a numismatist is:

Numismatics: the study or collecting of coins, medals, paper money, etc

these are coins...they are altered coins, but coins all the same...There is a long history of counterstamping and altering coins, it is about as old as coinage itself and well within the field of numismatics...at least IMO

 

i take it those are billzach's?

 

Thanks Drusus. I've been running into a lot of folks with shockingly limited views in terms of defining counter-stamped, carved or otherwise intentionally altered coins and currency in this CT thread. Of course they are collectively wowed by the novelty of the hobo coins and equally discriminate against counter-stamped coins almost 100%. It's easier for them to appreciate the hand work of a hobo coin as well as the fully altered coin as opposed to the superfiscial defacing initial quality they are responding to in a counter-stamped coin. Truly it is sad that those centered on US coin & currency collecting, especially those fixated on values, slabbing and grades have such a limited understanding of world coinage and global numismatic history, eg. your examples of altered ancients and their reception in those circles. I sense they feel that US coin history is somehow in a different universe than the centuries and millenia of coin history that came before. I suppose it is also particularly indicative of the typical naivety and close-mindedness that one often senses or is shown by many people from the US in many different international matters. I am a US citizen and US coin collector with world coin interests, and I abhor that attitude. It's childish and defensive.

In this thread I've attempted to point out the potential, 'eventual' growth of interest and potential future value in these coins for future generations as well as underscoring that these type of coins DO deserve and need (actually already have) numismatic distinction that is not dismissive, precisely so they are fully understood by the greater community of collectors (and graders) and as such they will not cross into the strictest of technologically and flawlessly graded coins like those of the modern marketed commemorative coins, proofs and uncs. produced by modern government operated mints for coins meant to be collected and never circulate, but also protected by these terms are those coins that grade high or trade for premiums based on conditions deviated from original minting due to varying degrees of wear. The same attitude of appreciation via grading of unique coin/exonumia can and should be embraced, defined and understood considering altered, counter-stamped and carved coins.

I'm just asking that people expand their understanding, not to be subjected to any forced enjoyment of altered coins themselves or to limit others appreciation and valuation of these unique numismatic pieces.

With that, I hope we will keep seeing more examples of Masonic pennies, tokens and any other altered coins. I'd love to see some examples of ancient counter-stamped coins, especially those with hand work and re-engraved designs or reuse of existing minted coin utilized for other purposes.

Thanks.

 

you are correct sir!

krispy, I see it like this, people are entitled to their own opinion and I have found often people ascribe their own personal definitions as to what is right and what is wrong to this hobby. It happens ALL the time on a wide variety of issues concerning this hobby. More often than not it entails a litany of limitations on what people feel is acceptable. This is fine as this is their hobby and collecting is a personal passion and there are about as many viewpoints as there are collectors.

My only problem it when someone speaks for the whole hobby, especially when it is expressed as empirical truth and not just that persons opinion....like declaring something as numismaticly worthless on extremely narrow, self imposed criteria or even judging numismatic worth by whether a TPG would slab something.

The former declaration of 'worthless' is, IMO, simply not true and at best a personal opinion from someone who has decided on their own to limit what should and should not be counted within the realm of numismatics. The other is, IMO, a highly flawed standard to judge if something has numismatic worth. Neither of these views, IMO, correctly depict the reality when considering the numismatic worth of counter stamped or altered coins. Its just a very narrow view to take to call a counter stamped coin simply damaged thus worthless.

One good example is someone declaring that the coins I posted are not Hobo Nickels. This man calls his work hobo nickels, his work is posted on sites that showcase hobo nickels, he was inspired by hobo nickels, he basicly carves a new image onto an existing coin just like the originals did, he has simply taken it to a higher level, its more refined, and he isnt a hobo but all the same...IMO, these are hobo nickels which have simply taken over where the originals left off....Just like any art form, it evolves and changes.

to each his own, but certainly the reality as I see it is that there is no reason not to include counter stamped and altered coins in the realm of numismatics, and they certainly are not worthless as counter stamped coin often sell for more than one without the stamp or alteration.

 

Under that definition so is a nickel I just beat up with a hammer and chisel. or a "sandwich piece". (Get me a sledge hammer, I want to create a numismatic item. Wham wham wham. There you go a new item that's NOT numismatically worthless! Drusus says so.)

I have no problem with the orignal hobo nickels being numismatic items, or countermarked pieces, or many counterstamped pieces. They all have hstory and purpose that relates to numismatics (money and money substitutes). The modern engraved art does not.

Am I a collector? Yes, but as time passes I collect less and less. Am I Numismatist? Yes, and as time passesI become more and more of a numismatist. Numismatics and coin collecting have little to do with each other.

 

Regardless of your condescending sledge hammer analogy Conder101, INDEED the pressure exerted by a hammer blow does lead to the creation of numismatic items... once coins were actually created by hammering a die against a planchet and still are essentially hammered under excessive pressure in today's mechanically die struck minting of coins. The force is used to shape the metal, just like you implied your sledge hammering would be doing by that action strike. :hammer::hammer::hammer: Although I think you will find that your sledge hammer method will be much less accurate than dies or counter-stamps.

"Am I a collector? Yes, but as time passes I collect less and less."

That's called a maturation of your interests... but your attitude in this thread belies or proves your limits to any such progress. If you cannot contribute anything further than your condescending remarks to the thread then please unsubscribe.

"Numismatics and coin collecting have little to do with each other."

...syntax error ??? does not compute...:computer:

 

Mason 32 degreee coin

Hi I have this Masonic coin which is not any form of currency probably from some sort of special issue collectors item .Can any one please tell more

 

Most of the details you need to do a search are on the coin. Scottish Rite Freemasonry

 

Okay two quickies... First, didn't someone way back in this thread ask about the cents with the tiny portrait of kennedy facing lincoln? I didn't see any answer given, but I remember back in junior high, I kept seeing those little booklets that listed all the coincidences between the assassinations of Lincoln and Kennedy (many of them myths, in fact) and the booklet always had a penny glued into it with a picture of Kennedy facing Lincoln.

Second, as to all the heated debate... Can't we all just get along?
And on that note I offer the following to all of you!!