Germany comes down on Collectors with a heavy hand

German numismatists ring the alarm bells

German cultural authorities have begun searching private homes and seizing entire collections of antique coins, if provenance of only a few coins in the collection is not documented.

These invasions are being conducted under the new German laws on importation of cultural property. Coins being subjected to such scrutiny are not restricted to ancient coins presumed to have been excavated - medieval and antique modern coins are also subject to the same measures. In one case, a pensioner from the Thuringian Eisenberg recently acquired four old coins on an Internet auction site. Shortly afterwards his house was searched, ending with seizure of his entire collection.

Collectors are understandably alarmed, because very few coins in their collections have provenances that will satisfy the new laws. When a collection becomes suspect only a short time is being allowed to prove licit origin before the collection is seized, and then even if the suspicion is unfounded, it is very difficult to recover the collection.

Not only coins, but all "cultural objects" more than 100 years old are
subject to these new cultural laws, leading to fears that stamp collections, collections of graphic arts and antique jewelry may also be targeted. The list of "cultural objects" in the 1970 UNESCO Convention is very extensive, including such common things as coins, postage stamps, photographs and printed books.

German coin collectors now feel completely insecure, like criminals suspected of breaking the law. According to Ulf Draeger - head of the Moritzburg Landesmünzkabinetts and chairman of the German Society of Medallic Arts - the entry into force of these new laws, despite their laudable intentions, has led to significant collateral damage in only a short time. His conclusion: "If this situation continues, then we can pack up."

For a summary in English see
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unidroit-L/message/3348
For the original articles in German see
http://www.numismatische-gesellschaft.de/
http://tinyurl.com/dfc7sp
http://tinyurl.com/bc8pqz

The gentleman from Thuringia whose collection they stole (I mean confiscated) had a collection much like mine ranging from ancients to modern...they took the whole collection regardless.

This all comes down to authorities and nations instituting overly harsh laws that brand all those who collect as criminals. Or as one elitist archeologist who has obvious disdain for all collector call us 'coin fondlers' equating collecting to a 'fetish'

For example in Serbia and other places like it...just metal detecting a field means you are a criminal...archeologists say they are just trying to protect sites but for bright people, they seem oblivious to the fact that such harsh laws simply assure that these people would NEVER report finds in fear they will be labeled a criminal. Archeologist say to only collect coins with provenance but then label anyone trying to ship or sell a coin as a 'looter'...museums seldom release coins for sale so how is one supposed to collect?

It is a much better way to allow people to search for coins...if they find them and report them, then they are allowed to keep the lions share of them and museums get first shot and can take examples of those coins and reimburse the guy who found it. Labeling collectors criminals is just over kill and will never solve the problem as most collectors are lovers of history and would rather work within the law and have coins that have provenance.

There are so many coins found each year there is no reason that collectors could not be allowed to buy the coins that museums will not display...its shear elitist entitlement by archeologist who believe all antiquities should be kept out of the hands of the public. Until the changes, nothing will change. Collectors are not going anywhere.
So one might want to rethink sharing their collection for others to view online....many collectors openly share their collections instead of storing them in a basement which is the fate of many coins that end up in museums or universities...this type of garbage will put an end to that sadly.

 

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Eduard, Are your coins safe?

 

How sad. Self destruct button on the safe should solve the problem!

 

Thats ridiculous.

 

As one German recently put it on the Moneta list:

Better to say:

"I swear, I've never posessed ANY coin older than 100 years! And when
the year changed from 2008 to 2009, I threw all my Pfennigs of the
German Reich from 1908 into my rubbish box, thus avoiding having any
'artifact' being older than exactly 100 years..."

 

not sure on the exact laws in germany on coins, but wow. :hammer:

This is when you take advantage of being an EU citizen.... go to UBS in Switzerland, open a numbered account with box, and hide your valuables in the basement along with where they keep the rest of the Nazi Gold. =P

 

I'm glad in the US we have the 4th and 5th amendments to protect against things like this (not to mention the basic legal doctine of "presumed innocent until proven guilty" rather than the other way around). It's sometimes easy forget that not all countries grant their citizens the same ones.

In this country if the police think I own a coin that is stolen... burden of proof is on them that I stole it, not on me that I didn't. They have to obtain a warrant if they want to search through my house to find evidence I stole it. And then the prosecution has to prove in a court of law that I did... again, burden of proof being on them, not me. Got to love having these kinds of rights!

 

Yes, it is often easy to forget how good we really have it!

 

I would suggest you look into the gold confiscation act of 1933 and the recent suit against the Longbards if you think the 4th and 5th amendments protect you.

 

1. Right on
2. Right on
3. Right on
4. Right on
5. Right on
6. Right on

 

Here is a little more about it...this was reported by Ursula Kampmann, swiss numismatic journalist (former coin dealer). described by the ACCG as “a well known friend of the collector, a respected scholar and a professional numismatist” in an article entitled article is entitled “Die eigentlichen Plünderer sind die Sammler”: Polizeioberkommissar Eckhard Laufer und sein Kampf gegen das Böse In the October issue of Münzen Revue:

"299 blaimless collectors have been accused of fence, because they bought at Ebay from a dealer who is accused to have stolen coins from the ground (accused, not condemned, and I have seen that the police in Usingen is very fast in accusing dealers and collectors). There have been house searches, collections have been taken away by the police."

This is a statement from the author made during a brief exchange with an archeologist well known for his disdain of collectors (coin fondlers)

I think that collecting is the best protection of portable antiquities. As long as there is a market for them, people take care of them. Right now I am translating 150 letters wrote by a Swiss coin collector living around 1600. In that time it was the characteristics of an educated man to collect coins. The world of education was held together by talking about coins changing coins buying and presenting coins. It is the oldest text I know about the practical circumstances on coin collecting. He often complains about the „stupid peasants“ who have melted down a hoard of gold or silver coins. And I remember myself the marvellous stories of Pierre Strauss, coin dealer working at Münzen und Medaillen and known scholar in late antiquity. He often told me how he rescued interesting coins from the melting pots of the gold smiths in the bazaars of Persia, Afghanistan and Egypt.

As most coins are made from gold and silver and have an intrinsic value, I do believe that every finder, who urgently needs money (and who does not?), would melt them down, if he could not sell them for more money to a willing market.
But this is a debate of principles – and I know that neither you have a chance to convince me nor do I have a chance to convince you.

But let’s come back to your first point: In Germany it is allowed to deal in ancient coins. There are many, many coins from old collections (as I said coins have been collected since the middle of the 16th century) – and there may be also coins from new finds. There is also a third possibility: that a coin was found in Bavaria – where there is a different legal situation that allows the finder to keep the coins (and sell them, if he wants) as long as he has noted the Staatssammlung in Munich or a comparable institution. I promise you, I have seen a lot of coins found in Bavaria – and I have never seen a certificate.

The problem is, that it is nearly impossible to tell to which group a coin belongs. German law is based like many laws in developed democracies are on the principle that the State has to proof the guilt of the accused, not the accused his innocence. And I think there is a good reason for it: It may be difficult to proof that coins are coming from a recent excavation or looting, it is even more difficult to proof that coins do not do so, but from an old collection. I myself collect – not ancient coins, but medals of the 19th century from all over the world. I do not have a single invoice, because I am not a very organized person: it is my private pleasure, medals do cost between 50 and 150 Euro – and this is not an amount I keep records (I also do not keep these invoices of my cloth and they often cost more).

If a policeman accused me of buying something on the internet and if a house search was made in my home, you could confiscate all of them – because they are older than a 100 years and I do not have a single invoice for them – at least this is the way German police now acts (they have secured coins from the 19th and 20th century in Jena).

What makes me so angry is the fact that Mr. Laufer uses his personal predominance as policeman to enforce his personal interests (and we know that he is very keen on archeology). The problem is that German mentality (and I hate to say that) tends to believe more in a policeman in an official position than to a person accused. And Mr. Laufer uses this by accusing persons who are blameless – at least from a legal point of view (you may see it in an other way, but that’s what law is for: to have an official position above personal interests). The principles of dealing with portable antiquities, which he has published in his official “Merkblatt”, have nothing to do with German law – but as this “Merkblatt” was made by a police station, other German officials accept that this is true without consulting the law.
THIS IS WHAT I OBJECT!

And I realize from your answer that you are even not able to believe that police is acting that way. As you wrote: “How do you claim it is possible that all the police involved in the “sting” against the 299 were all acting outside German law?” Believe me, it is. – But in fact not all police stations involved made a house search. I know of cases, when a search has been asked for, but the police station just asked the accused to come to the station, to bring the coins and to give his statements, which I think is absolutely correct.

But other collectors were confronted with all of the police force Germany has – their home is searched – just imagine, you are sitting before your TV, three policemen ring the bell, enter your home, search it, every neighbor sees it, you go to court, you have to pay a lot of money for an advocate and after one or two years you will hear: the case is dismissed. We have exactly this case now with Mr. Müller from Münzzentrum. And even as court has said that the coin has to be returned, the police station in Usingen keeps it confiscated.

Please read the article in the coming MünzenRevue

So let me sum up my statement: We may have different opinions on how to reach the best for preserving our testimonies of the past, but I hope that we have the same opinion that every dispute has to be settled within the barriers of a constitutional state.

Ursula Kampmann

 

WOW....Chilling. Hope Eduard's collection is safe.

 

Yeah for real that is really bad. Eduard has a fugio I hope that (and his entire collection) is safe.

 

The way things are going, how long can we expect that to last? The Constitution is only used when it works for their agenda or is convenient enough. Other times it can be completely disregarded. It's only mentioned occasionally to appease the few people left who care.

This story is total B.S. Who then IS allowed to own the collections once confiscated? Who gets to decide that? Sounds like another country let their government get out of control. Pure tyranny.

 

Thank God for the ACLU.....

 

Isn't that what the Nazi's did to help pay for their efforts? Sounds a bit scarry, if not morally corrupt, to me.
Guy~

 

The word Nazi came to my mind also. It really was not that long ago...

..and yes the Nazis did (do) seize art treasures.

 

I concur. Don't presume that the gov't will honor the constitution if it suits them to do otherwise. Hell, look at your rights that were trampled on subsequent to 9/11 in the name of 'homeland security'.

That said, I really pity the poor germans. Sort of reminds me of the history from some 60-70 years ago.

rono

 

well, apparently Germany has much the same laws pertaining to search and seizure and innocent until proven guilty as the US, according to the author they are just over stepping authority...the police officer involved in this...according to the author...fancies himself a friend of archeology and has overstepped his bounds in his zeal.

In the US, the government can seize your property if they have reason to believe you are guilty of a crime. They do it to people all the time. As just one example...If a person is a suspected drug dealer and they feel they have enough evidence to arrest you for that crime. They will seize all your property...they do not have to wait until you are proven guilty to do so.
With hope enough attention will be put on these actions that they will put a stop to this and make it right with the people they have harassed.

Like the author said...he collects medals. He buys these medals from all different sources. If ANY of these medals are more than 100 years old...he will be forced to show where he got the medals. He is like me...After a certain amount of time I do not keep the documentation showing where I bought the coin or medal...thus if they chose...they could raid his home and take all his medals that are more than 100 years old and he would be unable to offer the required documentation for them...

Still some of the more radical archeologists seem to think Germany is not doing enough. When they signed on to comply with the the 1970 UNESCO Convention on the Means of Prohibiting and Preventing the Illicit Import, Export and Transfer of Ownership of Cultural Property, they required lists from other nations of what is considered protected cultural property.

Radical authoritarian archeologist who look to outlaw collecting antiquities believe requiring this list will make the law ineffective as it will not cover everything...or everything that might be uncovered in the future.

It may seem hard to believe...but there are archeologist so stuck in some bizarre elitist world where only they should have the right to have access to ANY antiquities....they are so blinded by this that they will destroy antiquities deemed unimportant to a dig site instead of releasing it to the public. The reason being is releasing such things will promote private ownership of antiquities so they destroy things like old common pottery or oil lamps that are found in droves. If they find 2000 common Constantine coins...coins that would never been displayed at a museum...coins where thousands of identical copies can be found in the same horde....they will box them up and put them in storage instead of releasing them for sale...again...they simply do not want people to own antiquities however small and common. Its this entitled elitist view that causes some countries, at their request, to outlaw the ownership and sale of ANYTHING found in the country however small...

then the archeologist can wag his finger and say 'you should only collect antiquities that have a full provenance'

Knowing full well that the draconian laws they have helped put in place leave little to no antiquities to enter the market...thus making all collectors criminals...Most stop short calling us all criminals...they take a more elitist view and say 'you just dont realize what collecting is causing' as if collectors are, on the whole, somewhat stupid and are just not aware of the consequences.

I take a different view. I believe they are unaware of the damage they are causing by taking such an antagonistic stance towards collectors. The most fair laws towards this are in Britain where they allow people to metal detect, they require you to report finds, then they offer you compensation if you find something that interests them, if not, you can keep it. People there DO report finds because of this. Otherwise you are labeling people criminals for even TRYING to find antiquities in the ground. Thus people will not admit they found it and will melt them down for the gold or silver...or sell them.

Metal detectorist do a lot of good and could be a friend to archeologists. They FIND these sites...they uncover things that could be damaged by farming and lost forever...

If these people would just release the thousands upon thousands of antiquities that will never see the light of day to collectors then we would all be better off...coin fondlers will have coins to fondle and they will have provenance and we take good care of coins on the whole. Archeologist will be able to study the site but simply will not be entitled to all that is found....this is simply unacceptable to many.

Its all very sad that a few people can screw up so badly and make the situation so much worse the way they do. Just another example of smart people doing stupid things.