Why is machine doubling not worth much?

Discussion in 'Error Coins' started by Joelfke, Mar 3, 2010.

  1. Joelfke

    Joelfke Junior Member

    I dont understand why machine doubling isnt worth anything? It IS doubling no?
     
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  3. nss

    nss Gold Plated Member

    Because it is usually so minor.

    Because it it so common.
     
  4. foundinrolls

    foundinrolls Roll Searching Enthusiast

    Doubled dies have value because the coins are struck by dies that were prepared incorrectly. That creates an identifiable die variety. A die variety is a limited item as one die can only last so long. Sometimes the messed up die is discovered and pulled from the press after only a few thousand coins are struck. That creates rarity that can be established to a degree as coins are discovered.

    The fact is that even some die varieties can be out there in such numbers that their value is not so stratospheric. There are many 1995 DDO cents when compared to 1955 DDO cents so even a nicely doubled coin like the 1995 DDO can be purchased for a price much less than a 1955 DDO. The point....a die variety has specific attributes that lead back to a particular die or die pair and the values are based upon rarity.

    Machine doubling, sometimes called machine doubling damage (damage is redundant) is a random effect seen on billions of coins and is not something attributable to particular dies. Essentially it is damage that occurs randomly for various reasons as a coin is struck.

    Since it is technically damage and is as common as grains of sand at the beach, machine doubling has no rarity factor. Anyone looking through a roll of cents can find examples with machine doubling on them. No one with any knowledge of this will purchase a coin of this type and they are therefore, worthless. Some scammers on auction sites will list machine doubled coins as doubled dies and they are either clueless or crooked....but machine doubled coins are worthless.

    Some folks collect them and there's nothing wrong with that if they happen to like the look of them. The truth though is that if the coin is a cent, the 2X2 holder it gets put in is worth more than the coin:)

    I hope this helps,

    Bill
     
  5. bhp3rd

    bhp3rd Die varieties, Gems

    Trying not repeat anything foundinrolls said as he is right on target as always in addition,,,

    Good for you for asking, I wish more folks would come right out and ask like this!
    I like to say "doubling does not a doubled die make"! Please take the time to understand this. We call a "doubled" die coin a doubled die but we should (if we could go back in time) call it a coin struck from a doubled die. This is only one reason I hate these MD, MDD, DDS phrases as they polute the understanding cause this ain't real easy to begin with but I digress.
    To answer you question a little more, we study the hubbing of die itself then we study the coins struck by it - that's why it is called a doubled, not double die. The die before it ever stuck the first coin has been doubled (by multible incorrectly positioned hubbings, (keeping it simple here) and not the coins surface as in mechanical/machiine doubling.
    Coins struck early on are more valuble as they are "EDS" or "early die state" coins that show us the doubling of that die so much more clearly. "MDS" or "mid die state" are coins struck later and then there is "LDS" for "late die state" and all degress in between.

    We are amazed by and study the die production, (hubbing) and but not the machine doing the striking of coins so much. The machine at any momment can be adjusted to create coins with mechanical doubling. For that matter you could push with a heavy object the area of the dies during coining and make all the machine doubled coins you wanted. You could loosen the luggs holding the dies and do the same but there is nothing you could possibly do after coining begins, with correctly prepared dies in place, to strike coins that are true doubled dies!

    It's the die not the coins first. Of course the coins are needed to reveal "that there is fact a doubled die in place doing the striking"!!!

    If you learn how dies are made you will then, like a light bulb going off, know why doubled dies are valuble and sought after and why mechanically doubled coins are just a mess.
    Hope this helps you.
     
  6. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    Yep, Thats right its very common!!
     
  7. Shoewrecky

    Shoewrecky Coin Hoarder

    Foundinrolls stated
    Forgive my ignorance in my stating this however I think that is an unfair comparsion between these 2 dates because you have to look at that number of Lincoln's that were minted for each year.

    1995 6,411,400,000
    1995-D7,128,560,000
    ______________________________________
    13,539,960,000

    1955-330,958,200
    1955-D 563,257,500
    1955-S 44,610,000
    ______________________________________
    938,825,700

    a difference of 12,601,134,300. To me it would make more "sense" that there will be more die varities due to the number of cents being produced by the mint. I understand that there will be many more varities and not have any value "now" but how about down the road, like 20 years from now..thats what I am trying to look at.


    ...stumbles for words.

    -Shrek
     
  8. bhp3rd

    bhp3rd Die varieties, Gems

    The total production of regularly minted cents per year has nothing to do with the number of doubled dies made, found, for sale, how valued or how strongly doubled - it's the die, the die, the die!!!
    It has nothing to do with cents made but cents struck from THAT or A "doubled die". This combined with better minting processes designed to prevent such doubled dies, 1995 verses 1955.
    This is key to why and how we value these. We know that several hundred thousand 1995-P DDO-001 were struck and we know that between 20,000 and 30,000 1955-P DDO-001 were made. This is not the only factor but the strength of doubling is in valuing it. The 1995 is minor compared to the 1955 but very nice for a modern minted DDO.
    We know the 1995 DDO ran almost a complete run of cents and we know the 1955 did not. We know even the name of the mint foreman in 1955 that made the decision to release the the batch containing the 20,000 or so doubled dies, the very night, the weather forecast and resons for such.
    These are just some of things that help make doubled dies valuble and provide study for such.
    Again the coins are not the issue but the dies - the doubled dies!
     
  9. jallengomez

    jallengomez Cessna 152 Jockey

    Joel-

    Here is are links to a couple of good articles-

    http://home.comcast.net/~khrussva/Die_Variety_News_Issue_2.pdf#19

    http://doubleddie.com/144822.html

    As has already been stated, mechanical doubling is not a characteristic of the die itself and examples can be found in high numbers. Having said that, I am a voice of dissention in that this does not ipso facto make mechanical doubling worthless. You will find collectors of just about anything you can think of, and I know people who collect these, and I personally have saved some of my favorites that are unique and strong examples.

    Like most errors that come about from wear and tear to the dies and the presses, examples will range from being barely discernible to being visible to the naked eye.

    What I am saying is: collect what you like and know that there are those out there who will collect what you don't like. Just don't get suckered into(nor sucker someone else into) paying the premiums that are commanded for doubled die varieties on something that is not a doubled die at all.
     
  10. RUFUSREDDOG

    RUFUSREDDOG Senior Member

    Good/Bad/Ugly



    I think the 1955 (wish I had one type) can be defined as:

    There is One type that involved a bad die doing a "good" thing....for collectors.

    Then there is the Good die that did a bad thing....and just bounced around a bit.

    So the Good die types abound and are victims.

    And the Bad die types involve Shame Shame...and sought after.


     
  11. mikediamond

    mikediamond Coin Collector

    Minor machine doubling is very common and has no value. Major machine doubling is rare and can fetch prices in excess of $80. Declaring machine doubling "damage" arises from an arbitary decision to declare the minting process over as soon as the hammer die has reached the lowest point of its downstroke. One can say with equal conviction that machine doubling occurs during the second half of the strike cycle and is therefore a legitmate minting error. I myself am an enthusiastic collector of major machine doubling.
     
    Mernskeeter likes this.
  12. Treashunt

    Treashunt The Other Frank

    Mike
    Can you show an example of 'major' machine doubling?
     
  13. Joelfke

    Joelfke Junior Member

    wow thanks for all the responses....you guys really know your stuff :)
     
  14. Lather

    Lather Time traver Numismatist


    I think of These as a Major MD..
     

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  15. mikediamond

    mikediamond Coin Collector

    I would characterize the 1970 cent as minor machine doubling. You can find some major examples in this article:

    http://www.minterrornews.com/news-1-30-07-doubling.html

    Specifically, the 1992-P nickel and the 1997-D half dollar.

    Another outstanding example can be seen in this week's Coin World (Collector's Clearinghouse).
     
  16. justafarmer

    justafarmer Senior Member

    All coins are struck by a working die. Under normal circumstances the number of coins struck by a specific working die during its useful life falls within the norm of the entire working die population utlized for striking coins during the year; including Doubled Dies, RPMs and etc.. Therefore in most cases a doubled die is no more rare than a coin which exhibits normal charcteristics. The premium value of a variety comes from the unique characteristics the coin exhibits which allows one to attribute it to the specific working die that struck it.
     
  17. Lather

    Lather Time traver Numismatist

    Wow.. Oh ya.. I would collect those.. That is MAJOR
     
  18. bhp3rd

    bhp3rd Die varieties, Gems

    This is absurd and heres why,,
    You got a box of dies for 1980-P containing 700 finished working dies ready for the coining press. Of that 700 there is one die 1980-P DDO-001 that will strike 20,000, 70,000, 4000 - who knows how many but it ain't 300,000 thousand or more.
    On the other hand you have 699 dies that will strike anywhere from 300,000 to 500,000 normal coins each. And you say all those normal coins struck are equally as rare as the few thousand coins the 1980-P DDO-001 struck! What prey tell are you thinking????????????????????
     
  19. justafarmer

    justafarmer Senior Member

    Absurd - I see - how can you be so certain that the 1980-P DDO-001 wasn't utilized fully? A quick look at the coppercoins website has pictures for the 1980-P DDO-001 in MDS.
     
  20. bhp3rd

    bhp3rd Die varieties, Gems

    I am not the brightest fish in the lake but for the life of me I cannot understand your logic.
    Could someone else chime in here, please???
     
  21. jallengomez

    jallengomez Cessna 152 Jockey

    Assuming it did run its full life, I still don't understand how you're coming up with the notion that "a doubled die is no more rare than a coin which exhibits normal charcteristics."

    This would only be the case if a master hub were doubled.
     
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