Who makes the Grading Standards?

ANA Grading Guide, TPG's, your opinion..who makes them?



stainless

 

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Us. The people.

 

Then, why don't "Us. The people." have some say on how the TPG's grade our coins?


stainless

 

Question: If I purchase an ASE slabbed by ICG and graded MS-70 then I submitted it to PCGS. What are the odds of it coming back in a PCGS slab at MS-70?

 

There's some truth to this, but a major pitfall.

Obviously, we can't have us all wandering around willy-nilly making up our own standard. We must have a central standard. It will never be universally agreed upon... nothing ever is. It must have broad concensus.

And the ANA grading standards, as published, are the best standards for circulated coins. The book does a very poor job with mint state coins.

Realize that any two people are likely to disagree on final net grade, especially for problem coins. There is no absolute standard, and never will be. There is much subjectivity, and always will be.

In a sense, the TPGs are de facto standards, especially for mint state coins - whether I like it or not. They are true market makers as far as grading standards are concerned.

Great thread - very broad topic. No "25 words or less" solution on this one.

 

It depends entirely on the coin !

Everyone knows ICG hands out many more high-end grades (69s, 70s) than the others. That doesn't mean there are no properly-graded coins in their slabs... IMO it means there is a higher percentage of overgraded coins in ICG 69 and 70 slabs.

Put another way... if you randomly selected an ICG 70 and submitted to PCGS, your odds are very poor of getting a 70.

 

Here is the problem I see though. When the TPG's boost grades from F to VF or AU to MS because it's a Key date, or even slab coins that they normally wouldn't slab because it's a high end coin, how can they be the de facto. We, the people have a say in what we want, and why are we letting them control the hobby's standards?


stainless

 

no one really makes them or has made them they have evolved

No one really "makes them" or has made them they have evolved from hundreds or thousands of sources and practicable experience over the last 150 years at least.
They are more a combined theory of thought and hands on opinions than anything else and it is "a work in progress" as such.
Grades are often based on the numbers of coins that have been seen and even today not all coins have been seen, or at least not seen in the same time frame where they can be compared to all the others.
We depend on industry experts that have seen hundreds of thousands of coins over the course of many decades. These experts have seen more coins than 99% of the rest of us ever will.
We depend on these experts to filter that knowledge down to us and for the most part it is a big help.
The one thing they cannot tell us how to grade is eye appeal, that is of course in the eye of the beholder and where you or I can buy coins that fall out of the norm.
Grading is not that hard overall. The easiest grades to learn are AU-58 through MS-65 IMO, the hardest VG through VF. Plus it depends on series that is something often overlooked.
Many people get hoplessly dead locked into thinking they can grade better than the experts, they can't! Many also stay continually frustrated by thinking that coin grading ought to be somehow like science or math, it is not - if you want exact calculations coin grading will always continue to frustrate you.
You have got to get used to many shades of grey.

 

1 out of 100.

1 out of 100.

 

Because we have not only paid them to but we have willinglly

Because we have not only paid them to but we have willingly sought them out, sent them our coins and asked for their opinion - why else??? Plus I have never let them control any of my hobby standards - they are just another side of this coin.
To be more exact - we all have! We all have been willing to let the big three climb to the top, get the better money, submit to those most often, and so on. Most people think a PCGS slab is the "Top dog" and when it come to slabs and resale value it is. That does not affect my enjoyment of the hobby at all though - I hate slabs and don't buy them but I will study them especially on a rare coins. All this modern stuff don't matter to me anyway it's a made up market and will fall, and I mean fall hard one day.
Look, if these things were not worth money it would not matter - so the real answer to your question is money, plain and simple, money. Given that you do not have to agree or support them one little bit - there are no rules in this hobby.

 

Those are certainly good points. There are many problems.

Yes, we the people have a say. But if you line up every hobbyist in the world and let 'em talk forever, you'll never get anywhere. Check my signature line !

So "we the people" proxy our decision making to a "legislative body" - in one case, the ANA. In committee, they come up with the standards - accepted widely, but not universally.

Since the whole grading thing is tightly coupled with commercial / marketplace issues, and the TPGs opinions are accepted widely (but not universally) in the marketplace , the TPGs have enormous influence on the market's perception of grading (e.g. what constitutes an MS65)

Unfortunately, what it leads to is the sort of thing you mentioned. For instamce, enormous amounts of artificial gamesmanship about playing one TPG against another e.g. knowing how each one grades certain series in certain ranges and how to take advantage of their respective inconsistencies.

IOW... numismatics should be the art, science, and knowledge of the coins. In reality, it is also the art, science, and knowledge of the TPGs and their various idiosyncracies.

 

Thanks!! Maybe I should just put my #1 rated MS ASE's (PCGS) Registry Set on ebay and take the money and start buying some real coins.

 

That would be wise advice!!!

That would be wise advice!!!
If I live to be 100 I will never figure out what challenge there is in taking a coin series, (ASE's) which are all MS-66 or better and not even minted, used or intended as regular coins are, and grading them along side of real coins???

 

I appreciate your insight! Any suggestions on what a reasonably affordable "Real coin" set might be? I've been looking at Liberty Walker halfs and they have great eye appeal! What scares me though is that their are so many of them in the run.

 

If you ask me, there should be a better grading scale than the one-dimensional 1-70 that we use today. Coinage should be graded in two, three, or even more dimensions, taking into account eye appeal, wear, hairlines/marks, etc. The problem with that is people want their coins to be determined 'better' or 'worse' than any other single coin of the same type by looking at a single number rather than making a tough judgement on three conflicting ones.

As far as wear goes there may be a scientific method in the future that can determine the exact amount that a coin was worn down to the micron. The point on the coin that has seen the most metal rubbed off, and the largest difference from the UNC design can be given a specific number and can be compared accurately that way, instead of relying on the opinion of a professional grader. Maybe when this happens we can finally see a multi-dimensional grading system develop.

 

Well, forget TPGs, we have say. We can tell our friends it's a F or VF if that's our opinion.

There's a disconnect between the people and TPGs, they grade with their standards, we grade with ours(usually influenced by TPGs and ANA)

 

Great question stainless. I like going by the ANA standards. They were originally intended for everyone, including the TPGs to use. The TPGs chose to loosen the standards a bit over time. Maybe to make people feel better and want to submit more coins? Right or wrong, that's what has happened.

FWIW, the ANA 6th E. says for a brief period in the 90s, the TPGs were using computers to analyze coins and assign the grades. Something to think about if you see an anamoly in one of those older slabs. They thought that was the wave of the future but used them for a short time and then decided that people couldn't be replaced in the grading process.

To me, it's almost like an umpire calling balls and strikes in a baseball game. Do they get it exactly right every time? No. Can they possibly? No. But most people would rather accept their call than leave it up to video and machines.
Now, would you rather have somebody off the street who knows very little about the game umpiring a game? Or would you rather have somebody who has been doing it for over 20 years?

As was stated, the TPGs have looked at far more coins than most of us ever will. So why should we be an authority on or be a big factor in changing the grading scale?
They may still make a mistake from time to time, but do you value their opinion or a random person's opinion who may not even be familiar with a series, let alone the grading scale?

The TPGs are as close to experts as we have. If they shift the grading scale you pretty much have to live with it. It will always be a shifting thing over long periods of time. Nobody should assume that they're working towards or have almost gotten to the point where grading is a science and there are no more fluctuations. I don't think it can ever happen.

 

I will a agree that the TPG's have more experience than us, and they are more qualified to call a coin such and such grade. My beef is when they (and admitingly) mark the grade up on key dates and older coins. Why do people accept this and still pay MS-64 money for a coin that is not MS-64? YOu can't call an obvious AU coin MS, TPG or not


Even Doug says something like "Well I think it's a MS-63, but NGC/PCGS probably gave it a MS-65". This is a big problem, and I think we should tell the TPG's to grade correctly and stop marking up the coins. I understand it's a win/win money making situation, but it's greed.

stainless

 

i feel the standards have relaxed a little too much in the past decade since there has been a "flood" of new collectors. going back even to the mid 90's when i was just looking over my father's shoulder, it's easy to see coins have bumped in grade since then. look at the recent race to slab German Thalers...

the standards are set by the marketplace. if enough people buy into a coin that PCGS says is X, than that becomes the standard.

 

i think is shows the problem of grading. one is making an assumption that the TPG is the definitive source for grading standards. many world coins are starting to show up in slabs and i would not call those TPG's experts by any stretch. would i trust the grade of an NGC German Thaler over my own eye - no freakin way. i'm sure i've looked at more than the grader at NGC.