Whizzed coin or not

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by rugen, Apr 13, 2005.

  1. rugen

    rugen New Member

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  3. Spider

    Spider ~

    doesnt look so UNC to me
     
  4. Speedy

    Speedy Researching Coins Supporter

    It looks BU to me but it does look like something happened to that check.

    Speedy
     
  5. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    The cheek has a couple of hits on it, but other than that all I see are flow lines and die polish marks on the coin.

    '71 is a tough year for Kennedy halves - that's one of the nicest I've seen.

    It is definitely NOT whizzed.
     
  6. satootoko

    satootoko Retired

    I absolutely agree.

    What I'm trying to understand is that area from the branch in the eagle's left claw down through "E DOL", which has a granular look similar to a poor quality casting. The area under "STATES" is similar, though less pronounced, and of course there is the cheek. :confused:
     
  7. Speedy

    Speedy Researching Coins Supporter

    This just goes to prove I need to look at more Whizzed coins!!!

    Speedy
     
  8. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I think what you're seeing is an orange peel effect from the die polishing. But it could be due to small pits ( tiny die chips ) in the die.
     
  9. WaA140

    WaA140 New Member

    I thought he maybe hadn't shaved for that particular portrait. :rolleyes:
     
  10. cdb1950

    cdb1950 Senior Member

    Looks like this coin has some attractive toning. My own opinion, which ain't worth much, is that NGC tends to overlook damage on a coin if it has nice toning and will give a high MS67 'net' grade, like an eye appeal grade, even if it technically doesn't deserve the grade. That's why PCGS doesn't get a lot of coins with attractive toning because NGC will usually give the higher grade. I don't think PCGS would go any higher than MS66.

    This is just my observation and I wouldn't be surprised if some folks disagree with me.
     
  11. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I agree with ya cdb - I think the coin is overgraded myself. But based on your comments - I gather you think PCGS is more conservative when it comes to grading than NGC is - yes ?
     
  12. cdb1950

    cdb1950 Senior Member

    Pretty close. I think that NGC would not have graded the coin so high either, if it were not attractively toned. Seems NGC grades can put a lot of weight on eye appeal, a.k.a. toning, where PCGS tends to ignore toning, buts puts more weight to original luster, toned or not. ANACS seems to ignore eye appeal altogether and grades pretty much on technical grade regardless of luster or toning. Mostly. However, a coin with good surfaces, nice toning, and good luster will almost always make a high grade from any of these grading services.
     
  13. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Fair enough. But then I wanna point something else out. Would you agree that it used to be all but impossible to find business strike coins that were graded as MS69 or MS70 ? Yeah you could find quite a few 67's and every now and then you could find a 68. But a 69 - let alone a 70 ??

    Well here's a few facts. And these numbers are just from coins graded this year.

    Lincoln cent

    NGC
    MS69 - 45
    MS70 - 0

    PCGS
    MS69 - 671
    MS70 - 0

    Jefferson nickels

    NGC
    MS69 - 0
    MS70 - 0

    PCGS
    MS69 - 1,077
    MS70 - 79

    Roosevelt dime

    NGC
    MS69 - 2
    MS70 - 0

    PCGS
    MS69 - 20
    MS70 - 0

    Washington quarters

    NGC
    MS69 - 0
    MS70 - 0

    PCGS
    MS69 - 309
    MS70 - 0

    Kennedy half

    NGC
    MS69 - 1
    MS70 - 0

    PCGS
    MS69 - 1,073
    MS70 - 141


    Now I just included the business strike coins here. If you were to look at the Proofs - the PCGS numbers are anywhere from 3 to 10 times higher than the NGC numbers for the PF69/70 grades. And yet, NGC grades more coins than PCGS does.

    Food for thought as to who is the more conservative of the two ;)
     
  14. cdb1950

    cdb1950 Senior Member

    Another way to look at it -

    As a rule, a high grade MS PCGS coin is worth more, either sight unseen or on Teletrade or Ebay, than the same coin/grade from NGC, or anybody else.

    If you have a coin that is a lock high grade MS, then it logically goes to PCGS.

    If it is not a lock, then send to NGC (and keep your fingers crossed that they will like the toning and hopefully boost the grade). ;)

    There are a lot more of the latter than the former.
     
  15. satootoko

    satootoko Retired

    Well, as most of you know TPGs and their slabs are not my area of expertise, but isn't the presence or absence of luster, and whether or not it is "broken" a technical issue as to whether a coin deserves an AU or MS rating?
     
  16. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator


    I will readily agree with your comment that PCGS slabbed coins bring higher prices - no argument. But the question is - why do they ?

    The simple answer to that is because most people believe that PCGS is more conservative when it comes to grading coins. So folks think that if a coin is graded as MS68 by PCGS that most other grading companies like ANACS or NGC would have graded it as MS69. Therefore the PCGS coin should be worth more money. But if PCGS IS NOT more conservative, as is indicated by the facts - then these people are paying more money for nothing.

    This is not something new. Many knowledgeable collectors have known this for years. And those who can grade coins accurately themselves can see it at a glance. What is new is that the numismatic press has finally been taking the time in the past few years to do the actual research and keep track of the numbers. Then they are publishing articles containg these numbers so that the general public will become aware as well.

    The idea that PCGS grades more conservatively is a myth - it always has been. But as is quite often true, more people would rather believe a myth than the truth. Especially when perpetuating that myth puts more money in their pockets. But as more and more collectors have become aware of the facts, the realized price differences between coins slabbed by PCGS and the others have begun to narrow. Eventually they will be equal and then the tide will swing the other way. It is only a matter of time.
     
  17. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator


    In a way yes. But what determines it is how the luster was broken. If it was broken by wear - then no question, the coin is not deserving of an MS grade. But luster does not have to be 100% intact for a coin to be deserving of an MS grade. Luster can be missing due to a coin being dipped, as a result of bag marks - even as a result of a weak strike.
     
  18. mrsushi66

    mrsushi66 New Member

    GDJMSP,

    those numbers you posted, gotta question (might be known by most here)? Do those two companies grade approximately the same total number of coins? I mean if yes then I would say something is wrong with them having such different totals on the 69 and 70 grades but if total number of coins graded is vastly different that might put things in a different perspective.

    Paul
     
  19. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Did you read the next to last sentence in the same post where I listed the number of coins graded ?

     
  20. cdb1950

    cdb1950 Senior Member

    I think you've gone right to the nail and hit it squarely on the head! I believe you are just as likely to find an unattractive high grade PCGS coin as you are an NGC coin, the only difference being the subtle difference in importance each company attaches to the various characteristcs of a coin. NGC will grade a Kennedy half MS67, even with some fairly obvious digs on the cheek, if the toning is nice. PCGS might do the same if the luster is booming, either with or without toning. I don't think ANACS would give this an MS67 in any case, based soley on the digs in the cheek, toning or booming luster notwithstanding. In addition, this coin exhibits poor striking characteristics with a die pair in desperate need of refurbishing, which eliminates any chance for booming luster.

    So, the only way this coin could ever make MS67 is to send it to NGC and hope they like the toning.

    Bottom line, buy the coin, not the slab. This coin is not a premium MS67 unless you are really into toning.
     
  21. mrsushi66

    mrsushi66 New Member

    obviously not..sorry to have bothered.

    Paul
     
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