What happened to Diocletian?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by IMP Shogun, Feb 7, 2022.

  1. IMP Shogun

    IMP Shogun Well-Known Member

    Good day, evening or whatever time this post finds you in,

    I like collecting amongst other things, large follis from the Tetrarchy. Curious what you all think happened to the below coin. It's got an odd patina, perhaps repatinated?
    Diocletian Follisresized.jpg
    RIC 29a Ticinum

    My lighting is a bit harsh, but it does have a yellowish color. My first impression was it had some sort of deposits, but it looks like patina or maybe even painted?

    Thanks, and love to see your coins with Diocletian.
     
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  3. rrdenarius

    rrdenarius non omnibus dormio Supporter

    nice coin @IMP Shogun
    my favorite Diocletian has scales on the reverse
    Diocletian Moneta scales MA shops boersema.jpg
     
  4. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    The surfaces seem a bit rough, but I don't see anything out of the ordinary.

    A very nice coin!
     
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  5. IMP Shogun

    IMP Shogun Well-Known Member

    Love these types, a more traditional patina:


    RIC VI 43a
    6.016 Diocletian follis ticinumresized.jpg
     
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  6. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Folles are most popular because of their size:
    ru3363bb3269.jpg ru3365bb3115.jpg ru3372bb3179.jpg ru3380bb2103.jpg ru3405bb2980.jpg ru3410bb2104.jpg


    ...but, in all honesty, I still prefer the pre-reform antoniniani.
    ru3200fd2910.jpg ru3275bb3116.jpg ru3280fd2029.jpg
    ru3345bb2683.jpg
     
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  7. cmezner

    cmezner do ut des Supporter

    It has a nice and even chocolate patina :)

    A great post and coins about Diocletian by @Curtisimo from 2017 is:
    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/diocletian-two-interesting-coins-and-a-legacy-of-reform.307405/

    My favorites Diocletian coins are those with his consular bust. Have one from Lugdunum

    Antoninianus, Lugdunum, 290 - 291 AD, Mintmark A= 1st officina, emission 7 under the authority of Maximian
    The imperial mantle was used only in years when the ruler held the consulship. Sear dates this coin to 289 – 290 AD, RIC dates it to 290 – 292 AD

    21 x 22.5 mm, 3.587 g
    RIC V Diocletian 28; Sear 12655; Cohen 153;

    Ob.: IMP DIOCLETIANVS AVG Radiate bust of Diocletian to l. in imperial mantle: toga picta and toga palmata, holding scipio (scepter)
    Rev.: IOVI - AVGG Jupiter, standing l., holding Victory on globe in r. and scepter in l. hand; at foot, eagle; A in exergue

    upload_2022-2-7_23-27-47.png upload_2022-2-7_23-28-1.png
     
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  8. octavius

    octavius Well-Known Member

    Your coin looks good to me - maybe a little porosity. Perhaps it was buried in acidic soil. I can't really see a yellow color, but it certainly does not look painted.
    Here are two of my Diocletians, as well as a Philip sestertius with a very yellow patination....


    A0527.jpg combined868188.jpg 359_m336.jpg
     
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  9. ambr0zie

    ambr0zie Dacian Taraboste

    I also think the coin was buried in acidic soil.
    Otherwise, a very pleasant coin with a good portrait.

    I only have 1 Diocletian coin I recently acquired. Very happy with it.
    upload_2022-2-8_11-1-44.png

    (and my pic, where I couldn't adjust the lightning)
    upload_2022-2-8_11-2-23.png


    Diocletian AD 284-305. Ticinum
    Follis Æ 26 mm, 9,57 g
    AD 300 - AD 303
    IMP C DIOCLETIANVS P F AVG, head of Diocletian, laureate, right / SACRA MONET AVGG - ET CAESS NOSTER, Moneta, draped, standing left, holding scales in right hand and cornucopiae in left hand
    MintMark: -/-//PT•; OfficinaMark: T
    RIC VI Ticinum 45a
     
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  10. Orielensis

    Orielensis Supporter! Supporter

    Possibly the coin has been stripped of an uneven or otherwise ugly original patina and afterwards been "repatinated" using liver of sulfur or a similar substance. This method seems to be quite common among European metal detectorists.
     
  11. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana Supporter

    Here's my Diocletian follis, also from Ticinum. You can see that it too has a slightly yellow underlying hue. It was sold as being from the Giovanni Dattari collection of Roman coins. Many of Dattari's LRBs seemed to have been stripped of their patinas at some point in the past, before later retoning to varying extents.

    Diocletian - Follis Genius Ticinum Dattari 2336.jpg
    DIOCLETIAN
    AE Follis. 8.33g, 27.5mm. Ticinum mint, AD 294-295. RIC VI Ticinum 23a (scarce). O: IMP C DIOCLETIANVS P F AVG, laureate head right. R: GENIO POPV-LI ROMANI, Genius standing left, naked but for chlamys over left shoulder, holding patera and cornucopiae; T in exergue.
    Ex Giovanni Dattari Collection (1853-1923)
     
  12. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Supporter! Supporter

    I'm glad you were able to acquire this coin for your collection, @IMP Shogun. I have only one GENIO of Diocletian. It has that tanned leather patina we often see on bronze.

    [​IMG]
    Diocletian, AD 284-305.
    Roman billon follis, 8.99 g, 28.3 mm, 6 h.
    Trier, AD 302-303.
    Obv: IMP DIOCLETIANVS AVG, Laureate and cuirassed bust, right.
    Rev: GENIO POPV-LI ROMANI, Genius, turreted, nude but for chlamys draped over left shoulder, standing left, holding patera in right hand and cornucopiae in left hand; S/F//IITR.
    Refs: RIC vi, p. 196, 524a; RCV --.
     
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  13. Al Kowsky

    Al Kowsky Well-Known Member

    Shogun, I agree with the other CT members, your coin looks normal & not altered in any way ;). Sometimes these nummi will corrode depending on the burial conditions. As Doug pointed out, these coins are popular because of their large size & coins with moderate wear are not expensive :happy:. Another reason I like these coins is because they were made in many different styles :D. Pictured below are a few of my favorite Diocletian nummi.

    Roma 72, lot 1403.jpg London Mint

    2491170-016, AK Collection.jpg

    NGC 2491170-013 Al Kowsky Collection.jpg

    2491170-017, AK Collection.jpg

    NGC 2491170-015 Al Kowsky Collection.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2022
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  14. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    Diocletian (A.D. 284-305) AE Follis

    Weight: 6.90 grams

    Diameter: 23 mm

    Mint: Follis struck at Alexandria (ALE Mintmark) between 308 and 310, after his abdication.

    Obverse: DN DIOCLETIANO BAEATISS, laurel-wreathed bust right wearing mantle, holding olive branch and holding mappa in the other hand.

    Reverse: PROVIDENTIA DEORVM, Providentia standing right, extending right hand to Quies, standing left, holding branch and sceptre.

    Reference: Sear 12922, RIC VI Alexandria 80 corr.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    The coin in the OP looks OK to me, even if it's a little rough/porous.

    Here are my four Diocletians, from four different mints. He really did issue a wide variety of coins.

    Diocletian, silvered AE Follis, 294-295 AD, Nicomedia Mint. Obv. Laureate head right, IMP CC VAL DIOCLETIANVS PF AVG/ Rev. Genius standing left, pouring out patera & holding cornucopiae, GENIO POPVLI ROMANI, mintmark SMN (Nicomedia). RIC VI 27a p. 556), Sear RCV IV 12788, ERIC II 539, Cohen 106. 27.8 mm., 8.6 g.

    Diocletian silvered follis COMBINED.jpg

    Diocletian, AE Antoninianus, 293-294 AD, Antioch Mint (7th Officina). Obv. Radiate, draped & cuirassed bust right, IMP C C VAL DIOCLETIANVS PF AVG / Rev. Jupiter stdg. left, holding long scepter, presents Victory on globe to Diocletian, CONCORDIA MILITVM; Z in lower middle field (= 7th officina of Antioch mint), XXI in exergue. RIC VI 322 (p. 256), Sear RCV IV 12637, Cohen 34. 20.87 mm., 4.75 g.

    NEW COMBINED Diocletian Ant - Concordia.jpg

    Diocletian, AR Argenteus, ca. AD 295, Heraclea Mint (1st Officina). Obv. Laureate head right, DIOCLETI-ANVS AVG / Rev. The four tetrarchs [the Augusti Diocletian and Maximian, and the Caesars Constantius Chlorus and Galerius], draped, sacrificing over a tripod altar, two of them on each side, before military camp gate with six turrets (four in front and two in rear), VICTORIA-SARMAT [referring to victories over the Sarmatians*]; in exergue, H A [Heraclea, 1st Officina]. RIC VI Heraclea 6 [see http://numismatics.org/ocre/id/ric.6.her.6], RSC V Diocletian 488j, Sear RCV IV 12612. Purchased from Kenneth W. Dorney, Oct. 2021. Ex. Ira & Larry Goldberg Auction 90, 2 Feb. 2016, Lot 3274. 19 mm., 2.70 g.

    Diocletian argenteus Ken Dorney - Heraclea RIC 6.jpg

    *See Stephen Williams, Diocletian and the Roman Recovery (Routledge, 2000) at p. 76 (preview at Google Books): “In 294 Diocletian launced a fresh offensive against the main body of the Sarmatians. . . . By the latter half of 294 they [the Sarmatians] had sustained such a defeat that they ceased to be a threat for many more years. Sarmatian warriors were taken into the Roman armies in large numbers, either as mercenaries or under treaty, and later fought well under Galerius against the Persians.”

    Diocletian, billon abdication Follis, 305-307 AD, Trier Mint. Obv. Laureate bust right in imperial mantle (trabea), holding olive branch and mappa, D N DIOCLETIANO BAEATISSIMO SEN AVG / Rev. Providentia standing right, holding [scroll or short scepter?] and drapery with left hand and extending right hand to Quies standing left, holding branch downward with right hand and leaning on scepter with left hand, S - F across fields, PROVIDENTIA DEORVM QVIES AVGG; PTR in exergue. 27x28 mm., 9.6 gm. RIC VI Trier 673a (p. 208), Sear RCV IV 12927. [Die match to example sold by Numismatik Naumann in 2015; see https://www.acsearch.info/image.html?id=2337893.]

    Diocletian abdication follis, Trier mint, jpg image.jpg
     
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