Tiberius II Constantine 574-582 AD

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Andres2, Jul 13, 2021.

  1. sand

    sand Well-Known Member

    I'm not aware of any Tiberius II 40 nummus coins, with a trefoil on top of the Emperor's crown. I looked in Sear, Grierson, and Dumbarton Oaks, and I didn't find any photos, of any Tiberius II 40 nummus coins, with a trefoil on top of the Emperor's crown.
    *** However, I was incorrect, when I said in Post # 4 above, that all Maurice Tiberius 40 nummus coins, have a trefoil on top of the Emperor's crown. In Grierson, I found an example of a Maurice Tiberius 40 nummus, which is Plate 8 Coin 132, which has a cross on top of the Emperor's crown. Also, in Dumbarton Oaks, I found the following examples, of Maurice Tiberius 40 nummus coins, which have a cross on top of the Emperor's crown.
    Maurice_Tiberius_40_Nummus_With_Cross_On_Top_Of_Crown_1.jpg Maurice_Tiberius_40_Nummus_With_Cross_On_Top_Of_Crown_2.jpg Maurice_Tiberius_40_Nummus_With_Cross_On_Top_Of_Crown_3.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2021
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  3. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    Interesting. Coin AE20a also blows my theory since it has TIBER on the left.
     
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  4. Voulgaroktonou

    Voulgaroktonou Well-Known Member

    Yes, they are as impressive as the first years of Justinian's dated series.
     
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  5. catadc

    catadc Well-Known Member

    I did not touch this coin since I bought it, although I should see what the former owner tried to do about the bronze disease on the obverse. 0015.png

    It does have a trefoil and "...CONS-TA...", but I see there is not much consistency in attributing this Antioch folles year 8.

    https://coins.labarum.info/en/catalog/206?cid=2924
    https://coins.labarum.info/en/catalog/242?cid=3030


    And one of the most common 30 nummi of Tiberius II:
    0188.jpg
     
  6. sand

    sand Well-Known Member

    Those are nice looking coins.
    It looks like your 40 nummus coin is Maurice Tiberius Sear 532.
    It looks like the 1st Labarum attribution (Tiberius II Sear 448) is incorrect.
    It looks like the 2nd Labarum attribution (Maurice Tiberius Sear 532) is correct.
    In the Sear book, for Sear 448, it says "N.B. - These can only be separated from the Antioch folles of the next emperor, Maurice Tiberius, by the cross ornament which surmounts the crown on the obverse: Maurice's crown is shown surmounted by a trefoil ornament."
    Also, in the Sear book, Sear 448 does not include a year III over V.
    On the other hand, in the Sear book, Sear 532 includes a year III over V.
    Sear 448 is equal to Dumbarton Oaks 40-42 and 44.
    Here are the Dumbarton Oaks pages, which describe 40-42 and 44 as "wearing crown with cross and pendilia" (pendilia are those things dangling from the sides of the crown)". Also, in the Dumbarton Oaks footnotes, it says "attribution to Tiberius of coins on which the crown bears a cross, to Maurice those on which it bears a trefoil ornament". Unfortunately, the Sear 448 photos and Dumbarton Oaks 40-42 and 44 photos don't show the cross clearly (only Sear 448 and Dumbarton Oaks 41 and 42.2 have photos).
    Tiberius_II_Antioch_Dumbarton_Oaks_1.jpg Tiberius_II_Antioch_Dumbarton_Oaks_2.jpg Tiberius_II_Antioch_Dumbarton_Oaks_3.jpg Tiberius_II_Antioch_Dumbarton_Oaks_4.jpg
     
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  7. catadc

    catadc Well-Known Member

    Thank you, @sand
    I am no specialist in folles, nor in the coins of the two. I have the DO and Sear. None of them is actually a complete reference. I will check the coin one of these days to see if I can read the legend better. That might make a difference.
     
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  8. catadc

    catadc Well-Known Member

    Managed to get the coin out and had a look in DO.

    Here is the legend: D m T _ _ C O N S T A... 20210721_095713.jpg
    which is covered by this comment in DO for the Antioch folles of Maurice Tiberius:

    DO 159 Maurice.JPG

    Reading some other comments for Tiberius and Maurice, it seems indeed that the cross vs trefoil was the criteria to attribute to Tiberius or Maurice, and the legend did not matter at all. I do not have the works of Whittemore, Kent or Wroth, but I do not intend to go deeper into the subject.
    attribution to Maurice.JPG
     
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  9. Valentinian

    Valentinian Supporter! Supporter

    Some coins of Cyzicus have a cross on the crown.

    SB518MauriceGI15171wCross.jpg
    28-25 mm. 11.27 grams.
    Maurice, 582-602, year 7 (588/9) at Cyzicus.
    ... RIC(?) - TIbER PP ...
    Sear 518. Sear says "sometimes helmeted instead of crowned". This is the "crowned" variety. The cross is tiny on his plate coin. Other reference works give different type numbers to the two varieties.
    DOC I Maurice (123a) [This year, 7, is not in DOC I, but other years 2-8 are.]
    MIBEC [volume 2] Maurice 84D.
    Byzantine Coinage in the East, volume 2, 650a. [Four photographs of this type, but not of this year]
     
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  10. Valentinian

    Valentinian Supporter! Supporter

    By the way, here is the "helmeted" variety of Sear 518 for Maurice from Cyzicus:

    SB518GIIMaurice15170.jpg
    30 mm. 12.68 grams.
    Sear 518. The crest of the "helmet" is clear which distinguishes it from a "crown".
    Cyzicus is known for its poor portraits.
     
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  11. sand

    sand Well-Known Member

    @catadc That's good, that you have found your coin, in Dumbarton Oaks.

    It's interesting, that Dumbarton Oaks says, that "Grierson notes that the series begins with cross on crown and changes immediately to the trefoil ornament". I looked in Grierson for that quote, but I didn't find it. But maybe, some of the Antioch mint's Maurice Tiberius 40 nummus coins, have a crown with a cross on top.

    As for other mints, note that, as I mentioned above in my post # 21, which was a correction of my above post # 4 :
    1. I have not found any Tiberius II 40 nummus coins, which have a crown with a trefoil on top.
    2. However, I have seen some Maurice Tiberius 40 nummus coins, which have a crown with a cross on top. See the examples in my post # 21 above, and in this post, and in @Valentinian's post # 28 above. Such examples, that I have seen, so far, are from Constantinople, Ravenna, and Cyzicus. But there may be others, that I haven't noticed yet.

    Here are some more examples, of Maurice Tiberius 40 nummus coins, which have a crown with a cross on top.

    Here are some Dumbarton Oaks Constantinople examples (41f as in my post # 21 above, and 44c which I hadn't noticed before).
    Maurice_Tiberius_40_Nummus_With_Cross_On_Top_Of_Crown_4.jpg

    Here is a Grierson Ravenna example, Plate 13 Coin 213.
    Maurice_Tiberius_Crown_With_Cross_Grierson_Page_354_Plate_9_Part_1.jpg
    Maurice_Tiberius_Crown_With_Cross_Grierson_Page_354_Plate_9_Part_3.jpg Maurice_Tiberius_Crown_With_Cross_Grierson_Page_354_Plate_9_Part_4.jpg Maurice_Tiberius_Crown_With_Cross_Grierson_Page_354_Plate_9_Part_5.jpg

    And here are the Dumbarton Oaks Cyzicus examples, which @Valentinian mentioned, starting with 119.1.
    Maurice_Tiberius_Crown_With_Cross_Dumbarton_Oaks_1.jpg Maurice_Tiberius_Crown_With_Cross_Dumbarton_Oaks_2.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021
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  12. sand

    sand Well-Known Member

    LOL! What a thing to be known for.
    I've noticed, a particularly weird looking Maurice Tiberius type, which I call the "Charlie Brown" type. A lot of the Charlie Brown coins seem to come from Cyzicus.
    The following is not my coin.
    Maurice_Tiberius_Cyzicus_1a.jpg
     
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